Million Student March

hoffse · November 2015

Side bar -one of my favorite professors in college was a woman who came from that world of terrible US poverty. She was one of 12 kids. They lived in a shack with no running water or electricity. She dropped out of school in the 8th grade, and started having her own kids when she was a teenager. She decided to get herself out of that cycle. She got a job working at McDonald's while getting her GED. During that process she discovered that she was actually pretty bright. So she decided to get her associates degree at a community college. Then her bachelors at a state college. She ended up at Princeton before coming to teach at Vanderbilt. Her work on race relations has been cited by the Supreme Court, and she has testified before Congress on this topic.

Obviously she is the RARE exception, but it was interesting to hear her perspective on poverty. Having 12 mouths to feed (14 when you count mom and dad) made it impossible for a single minimum wage job to make ends meet. The wages weren't the only problem though. She thinks a lot of her family's problems stemmed from systematic, cultural norms in her community, and those norms have to be changed in order for those people to experience an elevated standard of living as an entire group.

You might be surprised to know she's also very conservative and a fundamentalist Christian, and she writes and speaks from the perspective. I'm actually way more liberal than she is, but I found her to be fascinating, and she offered a really interesting perspective in the classroom.

Of course, there is now a student petition trying to get her ousted because her speech is "offensive" and "insensitive." They are also demanding she have diversity training, despite the fact that she is African American herself and has way more chops on this topic than those students probably ever will have combined. The good news is she has tenure. And exams are coming up, which I am sure will provide a distraction.

Don't even get me started on the first amendment stuff happening on campuses around the country. I am actually really interested in constitutional law as a field, and I've been lucky to see more of it than you might expect in private practice. What these students are demanding is nothing more than viewpoint discrimination.

Erikan73 · November 2015

The thing about minimum wage jobs is that they aren't meant to be full time careers at that wage. They are great for getting experience. If you are at a poverty level, there are so many opportunities for assistance for a better education or vocational training out there (at least in my area), but people have to want to do better. You can find so many stories about individuals, some even NFL and NBA players who grow up in bad neighborhoods and in poverty, but they worked hard to improve their situation. I know not everyone can be a professional athlete. But you see it every day where people juggle a crappy full time job while going to school at night & weekends so that they can have a better life. It's not easy and you have to want to do the work. You have a choice, it's not an easy choice but the choice is to stay in the minimum wage job & work there until the day you die or to do the work to get into a better paying job and provide yourself with a better life. No one is going to just hand you a great paying job unless you have the skills that go with that pay. You don't have to have a college degree either, learn a trade. No matter how bad the economy gets, we will always need plumbers, electricians and HVAC people because we will always need repairs done in our homes and businesses. Getting ahead in life, is not easy, getting out of a poverty situation I'm sure is twice as hard, but no one is entitled to anything except the freedom to pursue your dreams for a better life then what you were dealt.

bmo88 · November 2015

hoffse Erikan73: I understand what minimum wage is intended for, but that is not necessarily the reality of our economy or the opportunities available. Many typical working class jobs (i.e. factories or agriculture) are no longer available and it's not always easy to get into vocational professions (plumber, electrician), without education/training, which costs money and time.

Additionally, there are a lot of underpaid jobs that aren't "minimum wage" but do not pay a "living wage." For example, my husband worked in retail for 8 years. When he left, he was an Operations Manager at Staples. He was 3rd in charge for his store, well trained and effective at what he did. He made $13 an hour. In our area, working full time, he would barely be able to cover his bills if he were on his own. Fortunately, he was able to make a job change after finishing his masters. But are you going to tell him "oh, you should have worked harder" or "you aren't meant to stay in that position very long." Retail isn't always the best field, but if you move up, you should be able to make a living wage.

Yes, it takes hard work, but the path can be incredibly difficult and hard to navigate. Your post almost makes it sounds like someone who is poor must be lazy, not trying, not smart or not "wanting it bad enough." I am not saying that's your intent, but that's the way it comes across.

Also, please do not allude to the less than 1% of people who become athletes or "make it out of poverty" as "evidence" that working hard gets it done. For every one athlete or well known story, there are hundreds of thousands who tried and failed. Generational poverty has lasting effects and creates a lot of barriers. Can they be overcome? Yes, but it involves a better educational system, quality housing, assistance funding, resources and much more. It requires more than people just telling them they need to want it more.

I just get tired of people saying the same old "if you work at it, you will get it mentality." As someone who leads an school dedicated to working with low income students, it's not always that easy. It's like it makes them feel better about themselves and "what they have accomplished."

I also usually hear middle class or upper class people saying things like that who have no experience "getting out of poverty" themselves or even working with individuals trying to get out of poverty.

bmo88 · November 2015

Additionally, to those who do not support the idea of a "living wage" that is higher than minimum wage: do you realize that those individuals will need help somehow to survive? So either they will need assistance through food stamps, housing assistance or other welfare programs (i.e., tax payers dollars) or we could look at legislative reform that both increases wages and eliminates the "cliff effect" where people lose benefits.

So would you rather than the lower class earn a better wage (i.e., businesses pay for it) or have your tax dollars pay for it?

julieanne912 · November 2015

bmo88 said:

Additionally, to those who do not support the idea of a "living wage" that is higher than minimum wage: do you realize that those individuals will need help somehow to survive? So either they will need assistance through food stamps, housing assistance or other welfare programs (i.e., tax payers dollars) or we could look at legislative reform that both increases wages and eliminates the "cliff effect" where people lose benefits.

So would you rather than the lower class earn a better wage (i.e., businesses pay for it) or have your tax dollars pay for it?

I think we all end up paying for it either way... either through taxes to support the assistance programs, or through higher prices the businesses will charge to start supporting the higher wages.

bmo88 · November 2015

@julieanne912: Yes, we will. But would you rather pay it through people earning it or "giving a hand out" which so many people seem to be opposed to?

Xstatic3333 · November 2015

@bmo88, you are so well spoken on the minimum wage issue. Thank you for articulating that viewpoint so clearly and linking some good resources to back it up.

Many have raised the point that minimum wage jobs are supposed to just be a stepping stone, but the middle class manufacturing jobs that used to form the backbone of our nation are gone, and not likely to come back. Yes, there are some opportunities for advancement within the service industries. However, for these "by the bootstraps" success stories to occur, a lot has to go right for a given person. A mistimed pregnancy, a car accident that removes your transportation options, a cancelled babysitter, or a sick family member can ruin job advancement within the service industry even for a hard working, capable person. Sure, some people pull themselves out of abject poverty and do well. We are lucky to live in a country where that is possible. However, it's never going to be possible for everybody. A significantly higher minimum wage (again, not $15.00 everywhere, but a living wage tied to inflation) will make sure that people can live with dignity when putting in a hard week's work.

Others have raised the argument that some highly trained professions, including childcare teachers and EMTs, make less than $15.00 a hour even with a college education. I'd like to speak to that a bit. I spent three years early in my career as an early childhood teacher making $13.00-$13.75 an hour. Now for me that was fine; I was young and single and it was plenty. However, my colleagues who were a bit older and had children were absolutely having a tough time getting by. These people work hard, are very skilled in child development, and absolutely should be making more. Frankly, I'd rather see the government, at either the state or national level, getting involved in funding free or subsidized preschool and daycare than higher education. Reliable, safe childcare would allow more people to stay in the workforce (as opposed to drawing benefits) and set kids up for success by keeping them in a quality educational environment for their critical early childhood years if their parents chose not to keep them at home. I'm not as well informed about EMTs but I was shocked to hear how poorly paid they are when reading articles about the minimum wage debate. They save lives daily and I was really surprised to hear they are making a penny under $20.00.

vlagrl29 · November 2015

I'm all for raising minimum wage - but to $15 is just crazy. Then those in corporate america that make less than $15 would want theirs raised as well. Then corporations couldn't make as much money and there would be more unemployment as a result.

julieanne912 · November 2015

bmo88 said:

@julieanne912: Yes, we will. But would you rather pay it through people earning it or "giving a hand out" which so many people seem to be opposed to?

I guess I'm one of the ones that doesn't mind the "giving a hand out" part of our society. Sure, there's people who abuse it, but I truly believe the majority of the people on assistance do need it. I just hope if I ever end up in a situation where I need help, it will be there for me, without judgment.

ETA: the cost to each individual taxpayer for the "entitlement" programs is far less than if a business has to raise their prices to compensate for the higher wages.

short+sassy · November 2015

I don't think I'm going to articulate this very well, but I'm going to try. I moved from a very affluent area (Orange County, CA) to a city with one of the highest poverty rates in the country (NOLA). Something I have found very striking and interesting is that both of these areas have "entitled" attitudes...but they're different. Keep in mind, I am making sweeping generalizations. Certainly there are lots of awesome people who live in both places.

In CA, it was an entitled attitude of the wealthy. Like, "I'm important and make a lot of money so the rest of the world needs to bow down to me". In NOLA, it's, "Woe is me. Everything bad about my life is everybody else's fault, not mine. So the rest of society has to provide me with everything I need and I will scheme to take and take and take and take, even things I don't deserve."

While on the one hand, I understand it is much harder for a person to pull themselves out of poverty when that is all they've known. For example, I don't remember the exact statistic, but there is a substantially better chance a student will go to college if even one of their parents did. But, on the other hand, while that is an obstacle for people in those situations...it is not a "be all and end all", like some of them like to pretend it is. There is a lot of opportunity in this country and most of it isn't a secret. But it can be hard and it definitely takes work.

From a personal note, I do realize I have been pretty privileged. Not nearly as privileged as most of the kids I went to school with, but still. I was privileged in that I had wonderful parents who watched their pennies without being too frugal. Who placed an emphasis on education. My mother was a college graduate, though my father was not. I was naturally gifted with a higher than average IQ and I have a crazy good memory. That last one made me a good test taker in school and, as an adult, helps me remember all kinds of info. That is useful in a myriad of ways.

But our family was a much lower average income as compared to our HCOL area. I wasn't born with a fully funded college fund, like a lot of my classmates. My parents helped with college, but weren't in a financial place to pay for the majority. I started working p/t jobs at 15 with most of my wages going toward my savings fund to start saving for college. I went to community college first, then to a state college...all to keep my costs for a college education as low as I could.

Looking back, while I was bummed (but understood) that I couldn't just waltz off to whatever college I wanted to with all my expenses paid, I think it made me a better and stronger person that I had to work for a lot of it myself.

Nutshell: Raised with strong fundamentals and intellect, but had to start young and work hard to financially get through college. Continually have to work hard, make good choices, and work multiple jobs for my bright present and brighter future.

As such, I find it hard to be very sympathetic to people born to difficult circumstances, even though I feel sometimes like I should be a little more sympathetic.

bmo88 · November 2015

julieanne912: I don't have a problem with handouts. But the problem is that the assistance program are not enough to close the gap. People receiving government assistance are still living in poverty. They are getting help, but $200 a month in food stamps for a family of five will not make them middle class. So the system you are "ok" with doesn't accomplish what it needs to, which is to change the cycle of poverty. The only way to do that is to increase wages.

Yes, it will cost businesses more and it may end up costing us more as consumers. But I am fine paying the real price for goods and services if it means people are being compensated fairly. Did you know that produce is only cheap because we pay immigrants 15 cents a pound to pick strawberries? As a result, you can buy them for $1.99 a pound. If we paid them a livable wage, we would pay more. But that's a far more just society. Right now there is a hugely disproportionate distribution of wealth in the country for the exact reason you are citing: no one wants to put pressure on big business to change things.

This video does a great job of describing the problems with America's Distribution of Wealth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJoHYr57Ccs

short+sassy: That's great you worked hard, I had a similar life path. However, as you mentioned, you were privileged in many ways. I was too and recognize that. I do have empathy though for those raised in circumstances where neither parent was well educated (as in didn't finish high school or sometimes middle school), they come from multi-generational poverty, don't have access to a quality education and have little supports. I am problem in the minority on this, but I have also dedicated my career to closing the education and subsequently the poverty gap.

julieanne912 · November 2015

bmo88 said:

julieanne912: I don't have a problem with handouts. But the problem is that the assistance program are not enough to close the gap. People receiving government assistance are still living in poverty. They are getting help, but $200 a month in food stamps for a family of five will not make them middle class. So the system you are "ok" with doesn't accomplish what it needs to, which is to change the cycle of poverty. The only way to do that is to increase wages.

Yes, it will cost businesses more and it may end up costing us more as consumers. But I am fine paying the real price for goods and services if it means people are being compensated fairly. Did you know that produce is only cheap because we pay immigrants 15 cents a pound to pick strawberries? As a result, you can buy them for $1.99 a pound. If we paid them a livable wage, we would pay more. But that's a far more just society. Right now there is a hugely disproportionate distribution of wealth in the country for the exact reason you are citing: no one wants to put pressure on big business to change things.

This video does a great job of describing the problems with America's Distribution of Wealth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJoHYr57Ccs

short+sassy: That's great you worked hard, I had a similar life path. However, as you mentioned, you were privileged in many ways. I was too and recognize that. I do have empathy though for those raised in circumstances where neither parent was well educated (as in didn't finish high school or sometimes middle school), they come from multi-generational poverty, don't have access to a quality education and have little supports. I am problem in the minority on this, but I have also dedicated my career to closing the education and subsequently the poverty gap.

Considering I grew up in the central valley of CA, I know completely why produce is so cheap. That's also why the people that say the "illegals" should just get deported upsets me quite a bit. I grew up around those "illegals" and their children. For the most part, they're all productive and hard working members of society, even if they aren't here legally.

Here's my concern with the higher wages (I should say that I'm still speaking of the $15/hour wages)... once people make more money, they'll spend more money. That's usually how it works... generally speaking of course. Look what happens when people get their tax refunds. The majority of people don't save that money for a rainy day, they spend it on TVs or clothes or whatever. So, once people have the money to spend on goods and services, the prices will go up. Or, like I see in my area, fast food jobs are paying $10/hour (which is what I made as a receptionist in college... and thought it was good money!).... and people still don't want to work there... they're constantly under staffed and always looking for workers.

I just don't think raising wages for low-skill jobs is the answer. I think providing more training for people to get higher skill jobs is a good idea, as is possibly creating more skilled jobs that have higher pay. Like I said in my original post.... the problem is not a wage problem, it's a jobs problem.

short+sassy · November 2015

bmo88 said:

short+sassy: That's great you worked hard, I had a similar life path. However, as you mentioned, you were privileged in many ways. I was too and recognize that. I do have empathy though for those raised in circumstances where neither parent was well educated (as in didn't finish high school or sometimes middle school), they come from multi-generational poverty, don't have access to a quality education and have little supports. I am problem in the minority on this, but I have also dedicated my career to closing the education and subsequently the poverty gap.

Such an excellent point!!! NOLA = high poverty rates, terrible public schools (far below national averages). I have seen first hand the huge correlation there is between those two. And now I'll sound like one of those crazy anti-government people, but I think ignoring the public school problem here is done on purpose. Our biggest industry is tourism. And what does tourism need to thrive? A lot of employees willing to work for minimum/very low wages.

Believe it or not, one of the huge silver linings of Hurricane Katrina was public education got a lot better. It's still bad, but not as nearly bad as it was. People briefly moved away and saw how much better the education was in other states. That it didn't have to be the horror show it was in NOLA. Plus, a lot of those derelict schools...most of which had no A/C or heating systems...were flooded and torn down or gutted/rehabbed. Replaced with new or redone buildings.

I know it is difficult to focus on education (for any area), because it is a lot of money spent IMMEDIATELY. But the rewards are not seen for a generation. That's a tough pill to swallow for the American attitude of "now, now, now" and the politician attitude of the next election, not the next generation.

jtmh2012 · November 2015

Personally, I think it's disgusting how many people are hung up over the specific number of $15/hr. Regardless of your skillset, at the end of the day, a person putting in an honest days work should be able to afford a roof over their head, food in their belly, reliable transportation, and some basic comforts at a minimum. I'm not saying they should be living the good life, but minimum wage doesn't even keep up with inflation

The last minimum wage increase was in 2009. Before that, 10 years prior. How many things do you know today cost the same as they did in 2009? Or in 1999? Every time a minimum wage increase comes up for discussion, people complain about how it isn't fair for business or how it hurts them. Since the establishment of the federal minimum wage in 1938, it has been increased 22 times! But every time it comes up, you hear how the world is going to collapse. The economy marches on. Yes, some businesses may go under, but that would happen even if wages never went up. Most businesses don't make it to the 5 yr mark.

We let businesses scare us by telling us that the price of a hamburger will go up, that gas will cost more, that buying our strawberries will cost more. But you know what, those prices were going to go up anyway. Why? Because they can. Because it looks good to the shareholders who only care about the next quarter. The wage increases just make a convenient excuse.

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