Kind of MM-related: kids

Xstatic3333 · July 2016

H's family is constantly quibbling about inheritance of sentimental items and I find it so awkward. MIL tells me every time she sees me how her rings and timeshare will be mine some day. Meanwhile, I'm just sitting here worrying about whether she's saving anything for retirement. My family is the opposite extreme. I think it's likely that I will inherit from my parents, but they never speak of it and I would never ask. The few times it has come up was when they were giving me a big financial gift, like hosting my wedding or helping with grad school. If I react awkwardly, which I usually do, they wink and say, "Don't worry! It's your inheritance and we'd rather see you enjoy it." Maybe they are so nonchalant about estate planning since I'm a responsible only, but I would like to learn more about where they keep their living wills and directives in case I ever need to help them. I also have a childless aunt and uncle I may need to fill that role for, so who knows how I'll figure all this stuff out. Maybe getting our own wills and custody arrangements done will be a good way to spur the conversation.

brij2006 · July 2016

Xstatic3333 said:

H's family is constantly quibbling about inheritance of sentimental items and I find it so awkward. MIL tells me every time she sees me how her rings and timeshare will be mine some day. Meanwhile, I'm just sitting here worrying about whether she's saving anything for retirement. My family is the opposite extreme. I think it's likely that I will inherit from my parents, but they never speak of it and I would never ask. The few times it has come up was when they were giving me a big financial gift, like hosting my wedding or helping with grad school. If I react awkwardly, which I usually do, they wink and say, "Don't worry! It's your inheritance and we'd rather see you enjoy it." Maybe they are so nonchalant about estate planning since I'm a responsible only, but I would like to learn more about where they keep their living wills and directives in case I ever need to help them. I also have a childless aunt and uncle I may need to fill that role for, so who knows how I'll figure all this stuff out. Maybe getting our own wills and custody arrangements done will be a good way to spur the conversation.

This is exactly how my parents were before my brother passed. His passing prompted us to be very open about how things were set up, what their wishes were, etc.
Although they still make those comments to us. My dad refuses to let us pay for our share of dinner with them and he'll comment that he would rather spend the money with us and enjoy it with us. Same with the annual family vacation. We save up for it just in case, but ever since we started the Dave Ramsey thing they pay for everything and never give us a bill for our share of the cabin/food/gas.

Truly, getting our wills done is what opened the conversation with MIL though. She does have some assets but doesn't even have a will. So this opened up that conversation and for her to actually discuss these things with us. Come to find out she has a burial plot already and she showed us where it's at. Nobody even knew she had that.

short+sassy · July 2016

My mom discusses her will (and a bit of her H's will) with me and (I'm assuming) my sister. Not so much amounts, but what her assets are and who has the paperwork for her will/assets. Some of it so we know what to expect and where to find things when her or her H pass away or, even worse, they die in an accident together.

My mom is a widow and her H is divorced. They both came into their marriage later in life and with significant assets, plus kids, on each side. But it sounds like they have both given a lot of thought as to what will happen in their passing in order to be fair to each other, but also to leave their children what is "rightfully theirs" (so to speak and for lack of a better phrase). I appreciate that and I think (hope) it will make things very clear for the people left behind, so there aren't any hard feelings.

She has also told me about some of the items/antiques/collectibles she has that are valuable. So we don't accidentally put the Picasso in a yard sale. She doesn't really have a Picasso, but you know what I mean, lol.

hoffse · July 2016

I think it's important to be open with your future heirs or executors about the basic plan and where things are located. That's especially true if stuff is going to be divided unequally. If things are going to be divided unequally, it's important for everybody to know that in advance so that 1) any hurt feelings can be addressed, 2) there are no surprises, and 3) your wishes are honored. My grandparents divided their estate unequally between 6 children. Everybody knew about it in advance. I won't say that everybody was happy with the way it worked out, but they were very clear about their wishes, and it did reduce the fighting (and cost) after they died.

You need to keep an updated copy of your will at home and a second copy with your attorney or executor. Don't keep your only copy in safety deposit boxes because in many states banks have to lock them until the state can take an inventory death. You don't want the only copy of your estate plan locked away!

My parents are very open about their estate plan, probably because I'm an only and I'll be executor and beneficiary. I know the code to their safe, I know my dad's password to unlock the excel sheet of accounts, I know where they hide the spare cash in the house, etc. He has also made sure I'm aware of this because my mom really just lets him handle most of that kind of stuff. If he becomes incapacitated or predeceases her, she will need help, and he wants to make sure I can take over to help her.

Xstatic3333 · July 2016

Thanks for the tips, @hoffse and for sharing your experience @brij2006. This thread really just made me realize that I'll need to get going on this stuff soon. We have negative net worth, but solid term life policies that will need to go to a trust, and we'll need to settle guardianship arrangements as two only children. Hello, to-do list, you're looking mighty long there!

blondie42107 · July 2016

@hoffse
How much should/does basic estate planning cost for a younger couple, with kids but not a ton of assets? I know if varies based on COLA. Also is there a website to search and compare attorneys/firms?

I recently seen a family that used an eldercare attorney for planning; spouse went on Medicaid for long term care. It was a highly respected firm but they really screwed up by not getting assets transferred in a timely manner to the community spouse (they have one year to do this). All the papers were signed and ready but the transfers weren't done. Community spouse died unexpectedly and the long term care spouse lost benefits. Messy, messy and are currently in the process of appeals... It's been three months and nothing has been decided on.

hoffse · July 2016

@blondie, if there aren't too many assets it shouldn't be all that much. I would figure around $1,000 or so for the average, and costs could be higher or lower depending on where you live and what you need.

If you need or want a trust it will probably cost more, but it's usually money well spent because it passes assets outside of probate.

Your estate plan should also include medical directives.

You can find estate planners by using the ABA's directory. Smaller/solo shops will cost less. If there is a solo person who has a good reputation in your community that could be a good buy. Otherwise, larger firms are more expensive but also usually start with better forms. The better (and more expensive) wills usually address various tax scenarios in case the exemption limit changes.

A lot of small shops aren't comfortable doing the tax side of it. Make sure the lawyer you use (or somebody on their team who looks at it) has an LLM degree in tax. It's an advanced masters degree that's post-JD for those who practice in tax. Virtually every estate planner at my firm has one.

I'm probably biased because I work at a larger firm, but I generally think that this is one of those things where you get what you pay for. I'm going to do the first round of drafting for our wills/trusts when H and I start TTC, but I will happily pay a senior partner I trust to review them. He just knows this stuff a lot better than I do. He charges around $500/hour. I figure my total bill will be in the $2500-$3000 range. That's a lot higher than market where I live, but it will be money very well spent IMO.

jtmh2012 · July 2016

hoffse said:

@blondie, if there aren't too many assets it shouldn't be all that much. I would figure around $1,000 or so for the average, and costs could be higher or lower depending on where you live and what you need.

If you need or want a trust it will probably cost more, but it's usually money well spent because it passes assets outside of probate.

Your estate plan should also include medical directives.

At what point do you generally start recommending trusts?

hoffse · July 2016

@jtmh most of the wills I write have trusts built into them that can spring once the person dies. We usually do a marital trust that serves to essentially double the estate tax exemption. You can also build in trusts that spring for children, etc. Trusts for minors are pretty important, especially if you want to dole money out over time. If you dole money out entirely through your will, then your estate really can't be closed until the assets are completely distributed. If you distribute those assets to a trust, then your estate can close and the trust takes over. These trusts are funded at death.

Living trusts are different because you fund them during your life. They are useful for a few things. They pass property outside of probate, which is helpful if you have real estate in more than one state (otherwise each state will have to probate your will). It's also helpful as you age if one of you becomes incapacitated or gets dementia, etc. It's also useful if you are in a profession where you are likely to be sued. I will probably never put our primary residence in a trust because it would eliminate the homestead exemption in our state, but if we ever buy a vacation house or something, that will definitely go into a trust (or I'll set up an LLC or something). I also think they are good to use if you could anticipate a will contest.

So there's not necessarily an asset threshold, it's more of a situational thing.

I think it's worth spending a couple thousand to lay it all out for your attorney - your wishes, concerns, financial situation, etc. A good estate planner will basically get a family tree/narrative from you and try to understand who could be difficult once you die. The guy I'm going to use has notes on families from decades ago - and he updates them periodically so we know what the playing field looks like once our client dies.

**Not legal advice

LillibetteV · July 2016

hoffse said:

@blondie, if there aren't too many assets it shouldn't be all that much. I would figure around $1,000 or so for the average, and costs could be higher or lower depending on where you live and what you need.

If you need or want a trust it will probably cost more, but it's usually money well spent because it passes assets outside of probate.

Your estate plan should also include medical directives.

You can find estate planners by using the ABA's directory. Smaller/solo shops will cost less. If there is a solo person who has a good reputation in your community that could be a good buy. Otherwise, larger firms are more expensive but also usually start with better forms. The better (and more expensive) wills usually address various tax scenarios in case the exemption limit changes.

A lot of small shops aren't comfortable doing the tax side of it. Make sure the lawyer you use (or somebody on their team who looks at it) has an LLM degree in tax. It's an advanced masters degree that's post-JD for those who practice in tax. Virtually every estate planner at my firm has one.

I'm probably biased because I work at a larger firm, but I generally think that this is one of those things where you get what you pay for. I'm going to do the first round of drafting for our wills/trusts when H and I start TTC, but I will happily pay a senior partner I trust to review them. He just knows this stuff a lot better than I do. He charges around $500/hour. I figure my total bill will be in the $2500-$3000 range. That's a lot higher than market where I live, but it will be money very well spent IMO.

Your firm would charge you for that?! The firms I've worked for will handle routine matters for employees at no cost. I absolutely love my firm and trust the lawyers in it, but the most expensive partner is $700/hour!

vlagrl35 · July 2016

Xstatic3333 said:

Thanks for the tips, @hoffse and for sharing your experience @brij2006. This thread really just made me realize that I'll need to get going on this stuff soon. We have negative net worth, but solid term life policies that will need to go to a trust, and we'll need to settle guardianship arrangements as two only children. Hello, to-do list, you're looking mighty long there!

is your DH an only too? We are both only kids as well. Makes me think onlies are attracted to other onlies - lol

short+sassy · July 2016

LillibetteV said:

hoffse said:

@blondie, if there aren't too many assets it shouldn't be all that much. I would figure around $1,000 or so for the average, and costs could be higher or lower depending on where you live and what you need.

If you need or want a trust it will probably cost more, but it's usually money well spent because it passes assets outside of probate.

Your estate plan should also include medical directives.

You can find estate planners by using the ABA's directory. Smaller/solo shops will cost less. If there is a solo person who has a good reputation in your community that could be a good buy. Otherwise, larger firms are more expensive but also usually start with better forms. The better (and more expensive) wills usually address various tax scenarios in case the exemption limit changes.

A lot of small shops aren't comfortable doing the tax side of it. Make sure the lawyer you use (or somebody on their team who looks at it) has an LLM degree in tax. It's an advanced masters degree that's post-JD for those who practice in tax. Virtually every estate planner at my firm has one.

I'm probably biased because I work at a larger firm, but I generally think that this is one of those things where you get what you pay for. I'm going to do the first round of drafting for our wills/trusts when H and I start TTC, but I will happily pay a senior partner I trust to review them. He just knows this stuff a lot better than I do. He charges around $500/hour. I figure my total bill will be in the $2500-$3000 range. That's a lot higher than market where I live, but it will be money very well spent IMO.

Your firm would charge you for that?! The firms I've worked for will handle routine matters for employees at no cost. I absolutely love my firm and trust the lawyers in it, but the most expensive partner is $700/hour!

And...oooffff...that's just for the senior partner to REVIEW what an experienced attorney has already prepared.

I'd hate to think of the bill from him for a more typical, non-attorney client. Though I'm sure he is well worth it for folks in that kind of income bracket. I'm already cringing at the thought of paying somewhere in the neighborhood of $1K-2K for my and my H's wills and medical directives.

I wouldn't even worry so much about it except, not to sound like a b***h, but I have significant assets that I brought into the marriage. My H has none. I'd hate to predecease him or we both die in a car accident and all my properties go to his family (he has children from previous marriages) instead of to mine.

I don't mind him inheriting my assets from me, but I'm hoping (and assuming) I can set something up to where...I predecease him--> he inherits my real estate-->he passes away-->my real estate gets passed down to my sister or her kids, rather than his daughters. For what it's worth, my H agrees and is on board with that.

hoffse · July 2016

Your firm would charge you for that?! The firms I've worked for will handle routine matters for employees at no cost. I absolutely love my firm and trust the lawyers in it, but the most expensive partner is $700/hour!

He'd probably do it gratis, but I would be happy to pay him, especially if he spends any significant time on it. His time is incredibly valuable.

EDIT: Speaking as somebody who is asked to do free legal work for friends/family/close clients all the time, and it drives me crazy.

hoffse · July 2016

short+sassy said:

And...oooffff...that's just for the senior partner to REVIEW what an experienced attorney has already prepared.
I'd hate to think of the bill from him for a more typical, non-attorney client. Though I'm sure he is well worth it for folks in that kind of income bracket. I'm already cringing at the thought of paying somewhere in the neighborhood of $1K-2K for my and my H's wills and medical directives.
I wouldn't even worry so much about it except, not to sound like a b***h, but I have significant assets that I brought into the marriage. My H has none. I'd hate to predecease him or we both die in a car accident and all my properties go to his family (he has children from previous marriages) instead of to mine.
I don't mind him inheriting my assets from me, but I'm hoping (and assuming) I can set something up to where...I predecease him--> he inherits my real estate-->he passes away-->my real estate gets passed down to my sister or her kids, rather than his daughters. For what it's worth, my H agrees and is on board with that.

What you are describing is possible in many states, though if there's a weird one out there it's going to be Louisiana...

LillibetteV · July 2016

hoffse said:

Your firm would charge you for that?! The firms I've worked for will handle routine matters for employees at no cost. I absolutely love my firm and trust the lawyers in it, but the most expensive partner is $700/hour!

He'd probably do it gratis, but I would be happy to pay him, especially if he spends any significant time on it. His time is incredibly valuable.

EDIT: Speaking as somebody who is asked to do free legal work for friends/family/close clients all the time, and it drives me crazy.

Fair enough, it's actually in our employee handbook which types of work will be handled free of charge for employees and what is excluded. It's a defined benefit instead of a favor.

short+sassy · July 2016

hoffse said:

short+sassy said:

And...oooffff...that's just for the senior partner to REVIEW what an experienced attorney has already prepared.
I'd hate to think of the bill from him for a more typical, non-attorney client. Though I'm sure he is well worth it for folks in that kind of income bracket. I'm already cringing at the thought of paying somewhere in the neighborhood of $1K-2K for my and my H's wills and medical directives.
I wouldn't even worry so much about it except, not to sound like a b***h, but I have significant assets that I brought into the marriage. My H has none. I'd hate to predecease him or we both die in a car accident and all my properties go to his family (he has children from previous marriages) instead of to mine.
I don't mind him inheriting my assets from me, but I'm hoping (and assuming) I can set something up to where...I predecease him--> he inherits my real estate-->he passes away-->my real estate gets passed down to my sister or her kids, rather than his daughters. For what it's worth, my H agrees and is on board with that.

What you are describing is possible in many states, though if there's a weird one out there it's going to be Louisiana...

(Sigh), we're always the weirdos with our Napoleonic law, lol. Thanks for your input.

I don't know if this is normal in other states but, here in LA, every time I take out a loan (unless it is under my LLC), my H has to be there to also sign that he is giving me "permission" to take the loan out. I'm talking about real estate loans where he is not on the deed, is not a signer, his credit is not pulled, he is not responsible for the debt...is in no way associated with the sale. I've heard the same is true for car loans, though it didn't come up with my last one.

Practically speaking, it really doesn't matter. As a sane and rational couple, we discuss at length any large purchases we are making, especially for real estate. But that's our business how we handle our marriage and finances. So it irks me the law feels the need to get involved.

What if he ran off to Antigua to spend his life as a beach hermit, never to be heard from again? (I better not give him ideas, lol). Apparently people have to put their life on hold while they wade through the lengthy, expensive process of a divorce from an MIA spouse!

jtmh2012 · July 2016

short+sassy said:
I don't know if this is normal in other states but, here in LA, every time I take out a loan (unless it is under my LLC), my H has to be there to also sign that he is giving me "permission" to take the loan out.

Just curious.....does this work the other way around? Like if he wanted to get a loan?

Trying to believe there's a non-sexist reason for this, I'm wondering if it is to try to prevent those situations where one spouse runs up a lot of debt the other doesn't know about?

You'll love this one. When my wife wanted to change her name legally in Thailand where she's from, I had to sign a form giving her permission to take my name.

LillibetteV · July 2016

I was able to take out a loan without my husband signing anything (I refinanced the house I bought before the marriage), but everything DID say "LillibetteV, a married woman" hahaha

The only thing I've needed his signature on is a 401k rollover from my last employer. Which is why a year later I haven't done it yet because I need it notarized (and now that we're married I can't notarize for him anymore!) One day I'll have one of the other girl's in my office to it for us, but I just keep forgetting to bring in the paperwork and have him drop by.

julieanne912 · July 2016

It's not a sexist thing, at least in my experience. It depends on the lender. Some lenders to require a non-borrowing spouse to sign some of the loan documents, even if their name is not going on the loan. We just took out a HELOC, and even though my name is not on the HELOC, I still had to sign some of the paperwork.

MommyLiberty5013 · July 2016

Yes, I also agree that it isn't some latent sexual thing that spouses sign loan documents even if they aren't on the loan. You are reading into that too much if you think it's a sexist thing.

Married people have certain rights when it comes to finances and noting a person as married and having a spouse sign a document for a loan makes absolute sense. I'm not a lawyer, but it's also likely in some states that if a spouse has an unpaid debt the other spouse could be liable for that debt, so it would make sense that both in the marriage would need to sign giving consent to have the loan taken out in the first place.

Xstatic3333 · July 2016

vlagrl35 said:

Xstatic3333 said:

Thanks for the tips, @hoffse and for sharing your experience @brij2006. This thread really just made me realize that I'll need to get going on this stuff soon. We have negative net worth, but solid term life policies that will need to go to a trust, and we'll need to settle guardianship arrangements as two only children. Hello, to-do list, you're looking mighty long there!

is your DH an only too? We are both only kids as well. Makes me think onlies are attracted to other onlies - lol

Sorry @vlagrl29, was away all weekend, but yup! Another two-only couple. I definitely think it is part of our attraction. We both are independent and cool with alone time, which I think was really key in our early dating relationship.

vlagrl35 · August 2016

Xstatic3333 said:

vlagrl35 said:

Xstatic3333 said:

Thanks for the tips, @hoffse and for sharing your experience @brij2006. This thread really just made me realize that I'll need to get going on this stuff soon. We have negative net worth, but solid term life policies that will need to go to a trust, and we'll need to settle guardianship arrangements as two only children. Hello, to-do list, you're looking mighty long there!

is your DH an only too? We are both only kids as well. Makes me think onlies are attracted to other onlies - lol

Sorry @vlagrl29, was away all weekend, but yup! Another two-only couple. I definitely think it is part of our attraction. We both are independent and cool with alone time, which I think was really key in our early dating relationship.

so are we. DH was able to take DD out of the house for awhile today and I was able to practice yoga at home for an hour. I just need that time alone doing whatever to re-energize.

short+sassy · August 2016

jtmh2012 said:

short+sassy said:
I don't know if this is normal in other states but, here in LA, every time I take out a loan (unless it is under my LLC), my H has to be there to also sign that he is giving me "permission" to take the loan out.

Just curious.....does this work the other way around? Like if he wanted to get a loan?

Trying to believe there's a non-sexist reason for this, I'm wondering if it is to try to prevent those situations where one spouse runs up a lot of debt the other doesn't know about?

You'll love this one. When my wife wanted to change her name legally in Thailand where she's from, I had to sign a form giving her permission to take my name.

Sorry! I don't really check the boards on the weekend.

Yes, it does work both ways. For example, my male coworker bought a car...using just his name and credit...but his wife had to sign a document that she was aware he was taking out a loan.

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