Politics & Current Events
Dear Community,
Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Re: Eye witness says trayvon attacked zimmerman
I just heard on ABC's this week that the Florida law is so extreme that once someone claims self defense, and the physical evidence comports to that end, the police are prohibited from making an arrest. Legally prohibited from arresting. (!!!)The Florida law basically enshrines in an individual immunity from prosecution in certain cases. A person can act as police, prosecutor, and jury in Florida if they feel threatened.
The eyewitness account changes nothing for me, and isn't inconsistent with my guess of what happened. From all I've heard, it sounds like Zimmerman pursued Martin, and then engaged him. I'm guessing he had a hero citzen's arrest complex going on. If that's the case, even if Martin did gain the upper hand at some point, the underlying situation is Zimmerman's fault, and he had no right to shoot Trayvon. I'm glad that SBP can confirm that the law has the same perspective.
It has been mentioned. Just ignored recently.
Interesting. Here is what Zimmerman's attorney said about the stand you ground: Sonner declined to detail what transpired between Zimmerman and the 17-year-old Martin, who was unarmed, but he said he believes the case falls under Florida's stand-your-ground law, which dictates that a person has the right to stand his or her ground and "meet force with force" if attacked.
"I believe what the evidence will show is that this case does fall under that," Sonner said. "I believe we have a good case."
I thought force with force is along the lines of what Irish has been hearing (gun for gun; fist for fist, etc) but his attorney seems to be interpreting it otherwise.
Also "if attacked", how was Zimmerman attacked when he followed Martin?
ETA: his attorney seems to be all over the place over "stand your ground" vs. self defense.
A woman who says she and her roommate witnessed the final moments of Trayvon Martin's life told Dateline NBC that George Zimmerman had "his hands pressed on his back" and "never turned him over or tried to help him."
Zimmerman's lawyer, when shown part of the interview being aired Sunday night on Dateline, emphasized that his client would be claiming self-defense.
More on Zimmerman's attorney and "stand your ground":
A lawyer for the man at the center of the Trayvon Martin death investigation said Florida's "stand your ground" law doesn't apply to the shooting that killed the unarmed teen.
"In my legal opinion, that's not really applicable to this case. The statute on 'stand your ground' is primarily when you're in your house," said Craig Sonner, attorney for George Zimmerman.
"This is self-defense, and that's been around for forever -- that you have a right to defend yourself. So the next issue (that) is going to come up is, was he justified in using the amount of force he did?"
This is what the attorney said in his first interviews. Now he has changed his mind and says the law does apply. Next thing they will be trying to convince people that Zimmerman really did not pull the trigger.
Re: the bolded - with the Florida law in particular, I don't think the use of force has to be commensurate. The NRA was a big backer of this law - the person just had to reasonably feel threatened, it doesn't matter why or from what weapon. In other words, you can bring a handgun to a fistfight.
I don't think Zimmerman's following Trayvon counts as an attack, though. If Martin was the first to get physical, that is an attack. That's part of the problem of this fuzzy law - both men felt threatened, and by this law, both may be within their rights to use violence in self defense! Martin because he was being followed by someone acting strangely (who perhaps had shown his gun already) and Zimmerman because Martin punched him (if that's what occurred).
I have said for a while that people are getting way, way too hung up on Zimmerman as the symbol of evil in this case. He's just an idiot whose stupid actions caused this tragedy. But what legitimizes his actions and the true evil, IMO, is the actions of the police force afterwards. Why did they let that boy lay on a slab for three days without finding his family? Why did they test the dead body for drugs, but not the live one? By doing so, they were trying to establish a defense for Zimmerman, instead of conducting a real investigation as to exactly who was defending themselves. We'll never know if Zimmerman was on drugs or drunk at the time of the attack, and I'd be willing to be the police didn't collect any forensic evidence at the site either.
But then I also think that the public is getting too hung up on the symbol of the hoodie, when the 911 tape never, ever suggested that Martin was suspicious because of his hoodie. Zimmerman was just describing his attire, and said that the way he was looking at all the houses was suspicious.
I don't know if it's the bleak weather today or what but I'm pretty depressed over this whole news cycle. Are we all making a big deal about Trayvon Martin's death so that we can feel better about ourselves, because we reacted against racism - because we don't have a freaking clue how to stop the carnage that goes on every day in Chicago and cities like it, and we don't know who to blame.
Where are the marches for those victims?
Then where did you hear it?
Hmmm. This is all nicely said. Very well put.
There are marches for them S. But generally speaking, when black people kill black people no one gives a damn. And it's certainly not news. Hell when there is a murder in my neighborhood I have to go to blogs to get the info because our local news can't be bothered to cover a murder in DC that doesn't involve a pretty white intern or lululemon employee.
Maybe I'm an incurable cynic, but the most surprising thing about the Trayvon Martin murder is that it is actually garnering national attention. And here I thought you had to be a cute, young white girl for anyone to care.
or when it is thought to be gang related, people do not care. I agree with the cute, white girl comment. We have all heard about Natalee Holloway, Elizabeth Smart and JonBenet Ramsey, but where was the news coverage for Jhessye Shockley?
As for the symbol of the hoodie, it is not unusual for people to gravitiate towards to a symbol to memorialize something-ribbons for cancer, AIDS, flag pins after 9/11, etc so I am not shocked that people have taken to the hoodie in this case.
The discussion regarding Trayvon Martin seems to moving away from race and towards laws like "Stand Your Ground" and self defense as defined by law. And to be honest, that is where the discussion needs to be. It is a start and it will be an uphill battle, esp because of the backing of the NRA, with laws like this.
I think people are so worked up about Trayvon Martin because he was a promising teenager with good grades and no record of bad behavior beyond what seems to be normal teenage shenanigans, but most importantly VISUALLY he looks non-threatening. He's not dark or menacing looking. He and his parents don't fit the stereotype and his parents were savvy enough to seek help from the right people/groups.
Sandsonik, thanks for the perspective I hadn't really begun to consider. Because I'm convinced Zimmerman is a racist POS for the slur he used in the 911 tape, let alone the result of what occurred soon after, I didn't even try to put myself in his shoes to find how plausible it could be that he truly did feel threatened, after making cavalier decisions that led to Trayvon's death. Manslaughter, at least, is what I'm currently seeing him being guilty of.
But I agree in that the biggest piece of the story is the mishandling of the investigation by the force. Not the murder itself, of which is a fuckingdisgrace, and not only due to being a mere statistic. But the bungling - and the suspicion that is rightly borne from this series of fuckups - it raises questions that shouldn't have to be answered after all the decades that have passed where whitey claimed to have opened their eyes to face the shame of their histories.
This story is pretty big right now. Seems it'll get much bigger still if this growing number of questions continues to go ignored.
Here is the partial police report regarding the incident:
It lists the offense as negligent homicide-manslaughter unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act statue 782.11
It does mention Zimmerman bleeding and having grass on his back and was given first aid by the Sanford FD. It mentions that Zimmerman admits to shooting Martin but there is no mention that Zimmerman stated it was in self defense.
It's very possible that Zimmerman did feel threatened. The issue here and the reason I know I'm upset boils down to what Zimmerman felt threatened by.
I'm sorry but it is a serious, usually overlooked problem in this country that people actually feel threatened by any black male, regardless of the circumstances, the look for the "suspicious" guy, his clothing, etc that one would feel calling the police, following him, and eventually pulling a gun on this kid.
The fact that we're glossing over that so easily by dissecting the laws, the responses in other deaths, Newt's dumbass comments is only further proof that people are fuuking blind and ridiculously naive.
Click me, click me!
What recent picture have you seen of Zimmerman? The one the news keeps showing of him is from his arrest years ago - they didn't book him for this killing, so they didn't take any photos of him.
I don't believe for a second a skinny kid could pin a burly man.
And great point, hab, that zimmerman like felt threatened. That does not actually indicate a threat exists.
As a native floridian, let me chime in on my upbringing, even in white sheltered land. My parents always cautioned me never to stare out the window at another car stopped at a light. They were paranoid about it making someone feel either threatened or that I was an easy target. Yeah, I'm white and likely never had anything to fear violence-wise, but it was well known even before this law that shoot first was common enough. My parents were likely unreasonable, but so was our environment. And I was accosted enough at random places like gas stations to be afraid of ever making eye contact with a douche who would interpret it to mean I wanted him.
To this day, I won't look more than a side eye out the window. I even got a damn ticket b/c of that when some huge cop in a huge unmarked pickup truck pulled up next to me. He tried to signal me to hang up (didn't know phones were illegal in the state, and I was already lost and nervous and trying to find directions), and I ignored him. Yeah, dude, you're trying to get my attention, and I have no idea who you are, so my eyes are locked ahead of me.
Ditto every word.
Also, I hope Zimmerman finally gets arrested and the trial comes over to my town. I want to be chosen for that jury. My anger knows no bounds right now.
Although I completely get your desire to be on that jury (so do I), I doubt they would select you based on the anger you feel. I think they would be concerned that you would not be impartial.