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Re: The danger of not talking to your children about race
Honestly, if you live in a very white neighborhood, you might need to think about finding a girl scout group, a dance class, cub scouts, soccer or some type of activity in a more diverse part of town. Because while you can find plenty of books and tv shows with different types of people, it would be more effective if they had people they know on a personal level.
I also think it's important not just to say that people are all the same but to warn them that there are people in this world who treat people differently because of the color of their skin and that those people are wrong. As they get older, it's also vital to teach them about how we've behaved historically towards people of different races, religions, etc and that it was wrong.
In the example of the "brown lady" I'd probably say, well, we don't say that because people sometimes treat people who have different color skin badly and when you say what color she is like that, it can make her think you might be one of those people.
Click me, click me!
This happen to me in regards to very large (300+ probably more) man. I can't remember if I posted in on here or not. I felt like an ass afterwards.
Yes, which is good. But for you to say that you won't sit down and have a conversation about it seems that you're not touching it with a 10 foot pole. Which doing subtle ways of incorporating diversity might work, but when they get older, it won't be enough.
What I suggested for younger kids encourages acceptance. However, they will get to the point in their life where they realize, not everyone is accepted and people are treated unfairly for it. That is relevant and something that should be addressed with a more serious conversation than Dora the Explorer.
I'm not saying, tell your kid about the lynching of Jessie Washington by age 5. Making your children, tweens, teens, etc aware of how life can be drastically different for people of different races isn't going to be achieved by their schools (at least not likely), or books or movies.
Zuma Zoom
Serious question--do most white adults not discuss racial issues with their partners and friends? I feel like H and I discuss race all the time. Like almost daily. Now maybe we are more interested in the topic than other white people? I don't have kids, but if I did I feel like they'd be exposed to issues of race simply because they impact our lives and our friends/family and as such we talk about race, ethnicity and discrimination all. the. time.
I was raised in a house where race wasn't discussed except in negative terms like one time my mom asked me if I had warned my dad that they guy I was going to a dance with was black. At 17 I was like WTF? Why should I warn him? But as an adult I now recognize that my mom has a lot of racial biases and deep discomfort with race that affected how she raised her kids. She was so uncomfortable with seeming racist that she just pretended race didn't exist. Maybe that's more the norm than my household?
I don't think it has come up once in my home.
I do remember my dad (born 1929) describing someone as 'coloured' and me saying something like 'what colour was he?'.
That is about the extent of it.
DH and I talk about race somewhat. I work for a native american tribe and I talk more about how their culture plays into the decisions they make for their people, how my interactions with tribal members growing up has been proven or not by my job, or how our community views the membership as a whole. There is a very negative view of my employer while I have a very positive experience.
That said, I do feel like I don't always have the right words or approach on talking with my kids. I so don't want them to hear the wrong message.
I like this a lot.
About kids being colorblind, I think it depends on the environment they grow up in. If they're around all white people, they'll probably notice the sole black or Hispanic person. I remember that when I was a kid, I was around a lot of people of different ethnicities, and I don't think I noticed much. Example: I had a best friend in 2nd grade; we were friends for a few months and then she moved and we never saw each other again. I thought of her about five years ago, considered her name, and was SHOCKED when I realized she must have been Asian. I truly did not consider it at the time. My best friend when I was about 3 was black, and I didn't realize that until about five years later either.
But I had friends in elementary school who did notice. I moved to a whiter neighborhood in 3rd grade, and a couple of weeks into the school year, I remember a boy crying because someone had taunted him for being black. The comments seemed more uninformed than racist ("You look different! Why is your skin funny?"), but he was extremely hurt and mortified. I remember feeling terrible because it seemed so absurd.
We also live in a very white area. We have one really good friend who is black and my oldest son, like LB, referred to all black men as our friend's name for the longest time. And then one time he flat out asked about our friend's skin right in front of him and it opened the door for a discussion.
We ordered these little wooden people
We also ordered a set of people with different disabilities (with a walking stick, wheelchair, etc.)
When we got them I never had a talk with the kids about them, I just sort of threw the toys into the mix hoping that they would get used to seeing all different kinds of people in their play scenarios. I wanted any questions they have to come up naturally instead of being forced. I felt like I would make things a bigger deal than they are if I went out of my way to discuss differences with toddlers.
We've had a few discussions since I got the toys, but not many. Now I'm wondering if I should be having actual talks about race with my kids??
Do you notice whether they play with all of the people included in the set?
Yes, and they tend to mix up the families - they don't keep the same type of family together.
We've had some good discussions out in public because of the people, particularly in regards to disabilities (they really like the wheelchair guy and have fought over him before). The discussions about race have been very basic, so I guess now I'm wondering if at some point I should get them out and talk a little more in depth. My oldest is almost 5.
This is pretty cool. Where did you find these?
I got the idea a few years ago from Pioneer Woman. But the ones she uses are really expensive. I think I found mine on amazon.com. If you search Guidecraft wooden family or something like that they should pop up. They have a wonderful set that shows different occupations and nationalities that I want to add to my collection eventually.
ETA:
Here are the families - http://www.amazon.com/Guidecraft-Multi-Cultural-Family-Toy-Kit/dp/B000AUZ686/ref=sr_1_2?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1333650202&sr=1-2
Special needs set - http://www.amazon.com/Special-Needs-Children-Set-5/dp/B0006PKYYQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1333650271&sr=1-1
Here is the career kit I want - http://www.amazon.com/Multi-Cultural-Career-Set-of-30/dp/B000Y3HRQ8/ref=sr_1_2?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1333650322&sr=1-2
We talk about race all the time, but we live in a very diverse area. I grew up knowing and being friends with black and Asian people, but didn't really know any Hispanic people or Muslims. When I got to college, I was shocked to see girls wearing Muslim head coverings. But then I got completely used to it, and now I've been in this area for 10 years. I am a teacher, and most of my students are Hispanic or Asian. It becomes completely normal.
H and I kind of want to move to Maine, but I cite this as one of the reasons I don't want to. I want my kids to grow up knowing a diverse group of people.
If I weren't her mama my DD would have no contact with anyone of any color. I still worry about this.
I do a decent job of making sure she has exposure, but she was definitely aware when we went to the States last summer. As soon as we got off the plane in Cali she remarked how everyone looked like her friend, Felix who is the only Asian kid in her school. Then we were in Atlanta with my fam. I can't explain it, but this kid was just instantly at home with all the brown skin in Atlanta though she herself is white as snow. A week or so after we got back home I had the Fresh Prince on television. She watched it intently for awhile and then said, "this looks like our family reunion." She didn't mention race, but I knew that's what she meant.
I still struggle with this though since race is a whole different ballgame over here. I'm still trying to figure it all out myself because it's different. Not better in anyway, just different.
We went to a birthday party last month and gifted the girl a box of crayons. The girl opened it, promptly took out the black crayon and handed it back to DD saying, "I don't like black. You can take it back with you." My head nearly exploded from all the emotions that immediately came up though I know she meant nothing by it. It was an automatic reflex. The girl's dad quickly launched into a discussion of all the things you need a black crayon to color in. After thinking about it, she took the crayon back. I may still need therapy though. I was shocked at how quickly my body just tensed up at that moment. A room full of white people and the girl forcing my kid to take the black crayon back, so innocent and yet so not for someone hyper aware.
Not so much anymore. Where we used to live, some of our neighbors were batshitcrazy racists, and so it prompted a lot of discussion. One of the things I don't like about where we live now is that there isn't a lot of diversity, and although I'm glad there isn't the hate, there's also isn't much outside of national news that prompts a discussion of racial issues.
I think this is very age appropriate. You are responding to questions asked and you are also being proactive by trying to incorporate diverse toys into the household. I think it is always a good thing to watch how they interact with the toys and if you start noticing them attributing certain negative attributes to one toy over another then you can consider whether more conversation would be beneficial. Since you homeschool I think you can take the opportunity to shape more in depth discussions when you get to the point where you are exposing them to history, etc. .
I think we're really on the same page here. My kids are 3 & 5. I am fully prepared to talk with them and have real conversations about it as they get older. I do not shy away from race. In fact, my 15 yo niece is biracial. My boys idolize her (she lives 3 hours away but spends a week with us every summer) and will certainly ask about why she is a different color some day. I actually hope they ask her and she can talk to them about it it, not because I don't want to, but it will carry more weight for them if they hear it from the horse's mouth so to speak.
And I think my example as a parent (and my husband's too or course) may even do more than a talk. Kids learn way more from example (speaking of things like teaching manners- do as I say, not as I do may work in the short term, but not over the long haul) than they do from talking.
Also, there is a great book that I 1st found out about in Freakonomics. The Parenting Myth basically says that parents think we have way more influence on our kids than we do. Parents mistakenly think that we guide the great majority of our children's decision making, where the reality is we do not. The book basically says peer influence is far greater than parental influence and that if we, as parents, want to have positive long term influence on our kids one of the best ways we can do that is by helping to create their peer group.
I think my hubs and I accomplish that by hanging around with people who are like minded to us and have kids our kids ages. Also, I think (because we are fortunate enough to have the choice) choosing a school for them that teaches diversity (like celebrating all the religions that I mentioned before. Side note there- I am an Atheist but feel that my kids should have exposure to religion because it's an important part of our world) and also has a small but diverse student body will do a lot to accomplish the goal of having non- bigoted children who become non bigoted adults.
To that point, I knew many kids who didn't have a racist bone in their body, who came from families like my own, who I knew well growing up in a small town together, who went away to college and came back bigots/homophobes/whatever. I was there when a kid I grew up with said "fag" and his mother slapped him across the face. It says a lot about the power of peer pressure and the influences on our kids outside of the home.
Basically, we can all just do the best we can. I think as a single mom, my mother did a great job, even if 1/2 the time she wasn't so consciously aware of what she was doing. I can emulate that and hope my kids respond well. On the other hand, my inlaws are older and from rural south Texas and they are that kind of subtle racist where they make sweeping generalizations about, say, Mexicans, even thought one of my FIL's BFFs is Mexican. Despite this, they have raised 2 children who do not have a racist bone in their bodies. My husband has more empathy and compassion for others than anyone I have ever known. It kind of amazes me. So, we can talk about it until we're blue in the face but, really, there is no one answer for every child and some parents can do all the best they can and still have a kid who grows up defying everything they were taught. For me, I'll do the best I can and hope my sons become the kinds of men I would have been proud to have had my daughters marry.
Edit to explain in a way that makes that sound less incestuous--- my boy mom friends and I often talk about the challenges of raising men and I always say I want my sons to be the kind of men I would have wanted my daughters to marry if I had any. Does that sound less crazy? LOL
I admit I haven't read all the comments yet, but I'm torn on this.
I'm thinking about a business writing class I used to teach. We talked a lot about how to be gender and race neutral in a professional setting. It wasn't because talking about race is wrong but rather that people tend to only point out minority race. White male is implicit, so you point out when someone isn't, and that's something to think about, whether it's always appropriate or not. Use job titles as a descriptor, or something else.
I'm trying to think of examples. I used to have a lot of them.
Oh, I do have a recent one. I recently went to a manager to report how I was treated by an employee. I said "employee on x floor". She said, oh, the vietnamese guy? Well, yes, but I didn't want to bring race or ethnicity into my complaint, even if it was a true statement.
Sure, it's ok for kids to use race as one of many descriptors, but I think it can also lead to tozen-izing. Like, if I'm referring to a friend, do I need to preface it with "my black friend" when I wouldn't say "my white friend"? It may be easy if I only have one black friend, but is it always necessary to use race as a descriptor? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it's entirely appropriate to say simply "my friend." Am I making any sense?
Ha! To me, complete sense.
after reading through these replies, i'm not sure what we're doing and if whatever we are doing is positive.
we've talked about the color of skin before with grace. she's obviously as white as milk. in her daycare there were a couple of AA kids but it never came up. now that she's in school there's a little boy in after-care named ben, like her brother, that she's latched onto. she LOVES ben (he's one of her 3 boyfriends). grace can't get enough of his sister, too. i kind of feel bad for those kids because she's always on top of them but they don't seem to mind too much and i make a point of thanking them whenever i can
as it turns out, ben's father is white. grace described their family as, "their dad is light like us and their mom is brown (which was quickly corrected as AA)". we explained to her that the color of their skin didn't make a difference because it's what's inside that counts,
am i missing something? she's only 6.
I think the appropriateness of using descriptors as an adult is harder. In general I view adults as having a better way to describe someone other than just by the color of their skin. In the workplace especially where titles and job descriptions matter, how is it that the only way I could be described is by the color of my skin? Of course context matters, so I won't say it is never appropriate. I understand the notion that by almost encouraging conversation with our kids that it may seem like there would be encouragement to use descriptors that they may take through adulthood. But to me all that means is that this is a continuing conversation as most things with kids. As they get older, the conversation gets into more nuanced items.
As I was reading through this thread earlier, it struck me that some people seem to feel as though they have to hash out all aspects of race, history, bigotry, etc., with their very young children. Personally, my goal is the keep it age-appropriate and expand the conversation as the kids get older and have enough brain development to actually wrap their heads around some of the more complex issues.
I will share that I had one of those moments where my child said something in public and I responded like a panicked fool. We were eating at Panera when a woman came in with a male companion who appeared to have MS. My DD asked loudly why the man was "acting funny" and before I could even stop to conjure an intelligent answer, I said, "Because everyone is different NOWEATYOURLUNCH."
Exactly, I wouldn't expect a Trayvonn Martin discussion at 5. : ).
I think all parents go through the panic of ohshitmykiddidnotjustsaythat. I often have to bring up stuff later because I questioned how I handled something the first time. Sometimes he remembers what sparked the conversation and other times he looks at me like I am crazy and then asks if we can go play soccer now, lol.
I'm not a parent, and I may never be one, but I'm pretty sure I'd screw a kid up b/c it wouldn't have occurred to me to consciously introduce a topic like this. Maybe you don't have to b/c it obviously can arise organically.
I haven't read everything. But this is a hard topic. And people should tread lightly, especially on those who are struggling with how and when to talk to their children about race. Because what is race anyway? What are the races? White, black, and Asian? Is it a social construct? A biological construct?
My husband and I talk about this quite a bit. I'm white. He's Mexican. What is Mexican? What race is Mexican? He's not black. He's not Asian. That leaves caucasian, but that doesn't sit right with him either. Is he raceless? How is it that we live in a race obsessed country and era yet he can't answer this question? And he's not alone. Look how the media is struggling with George Zimmerman. A man with a Peruvian mom and a Jewish dad. He's white. No he's Hispanic. He's a White-Hispanic. What is this?
So where does this leave our daughter? Half white, half? Mexican, of course, but Mexican isn't a race. So I ask my husband. What is she? "She's white." He says. "But what are you?" I say. And he can't answer. We can't define her other half. See why this is hard? People want this to be a black and white issue. It's not. When you take into account those of Hispanic backgrounds and/or mixed ethnicities/races, it's not easy to just put people in boxes, nor do I think we should.
In our global, multi-ethnic society I think it's time to move beyond race. Is this white privilege? Maybe but my husband feels the same way. (But is that because he might be white?)
[I hope I'm not saying anything flameful...these are just the meandering thoughts we have in our house all...the...time.]
Why is this the week I am SO FREAKING busy at work?!? I really wish I had the time to read all the comments but I have not yet - I will say that I just ordered Nurture Shock and will bookmark this page. I grew up in an incredibly white area and live in one now. I did go to very small (boarding) high school and had black class mates who were super patient with my questions and inadvertent insensitivities - I think that was the first realization that I had that my parents, while well meaning, did a disservice by not addressing race.
While Sam does go to school with kids from all over and who are of various shades, it's not enough. I don't want him to be "colorblind" and I don't want him to ignorant of the fact that society has been far from it. I also know that given my incredibly insular existence, I will not have at the ready all the answers to questions or comments that he might come up with - at home or in public. Eddy, I have no idea what I would have said in the situation you described.
I want to get it right. I know I don't have all the answers. We, as a society, have to do better and I want to play my part.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
I never got a race talk from my parents. But the first movie my dad admitted to crying at was Do the Right Thing. Up til then I really was a little racist POS. I had negative prejudices against Blacks, Mexicans, Asians.
And look how wonderful *I* turned out!
So funny - we ran into the same thing when we got our census form a couple years ago. I was filling it out and asked H, who's Puerto Rican, what he wanted me to put for race. It went kind of like:
"What do you want me to put for race?"
"Put Hispanic"
"That's not a choice"
"What are the choices?"
"White, black, American Indian, Asian Indian, a bunch of Asian categories that are not you"
"Well I'm none of those"
"Well, what are you?"
"I'm Puerto Rican, baby!"
"Yeah, I know, but 'Puerto Rican baby' isn't a choice"
"Well I'm Hispanic"
"But that's an ethnicity and isn't under race"
"That's dumb. So I don't know, whatever, put whatever you want"
Sigh.
If you looked at him, you'd see his point, though - he isn't black, but he has darker skin and is really not white. He has Taino Indian blood which you can tell by looking at him, but doesn't identify with that, exactly. So neither of us had any idea how to categorize him. And like you say, he isn't alone. This can't be an uncommon situation.