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Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
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Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Re: I think maybe H isn't ready for kids
I get that a plane is simply a method of transportation, but I do think that a pleasant, peaceful experience is a reasonable expectation, and that when on a plane everyone should do whatever possible to make sure that they, their children, their pets, etc. are not disturbing anyone else. This means not letting your children run wild, play with loud toys, using headphones for your music, not taking off your shoes if you have horrible stank feet, trying your best to keep your gas silent, not getting drunk off your ass...
I think everyone understands that kids on a flight will probably cry, get fussy, get bored and make a bit of a ruckus, within reason.
Chronically hilarious - you'll split your stitches!
I wrote a book! Bucket list CHECK!
http://notesfortheirtherapist.blogspot.co.uk
I used to think this because this is how I felt about kids even before I had them. I've noticed, though, that it's just not the case. I think people expect that kids will do that, but don't understand when it happens. I say this only because I've had people roll their eyes along with heavily sigh and show all signs of being annoyed because I had a baby with me. My son wasn't doing anything (and didn't do anything the entire flight).
I think flights should be pleasant, but that means so many different things to different people.
I agree - but there is a difference between it being an expectation and it being something you are entitled to. You simply aren't entitled to that. Is it nice? Yes. Should everyone strive for that? Of course. Entitled to it? No. That is the difference.
The problem is that while people understands that kids will probably do those things parents still get nasty looks and whispers when it happens. And people who want a child free flight aren't wanting to deal with even that.
Do I love the sound of sad/cranky/upset/p.o'd kids? Be it on a plane, in a restaurant, or in my house... No. It's upsetting and unsettling... because, as a responsible(ish, in my case) adult, you want to comfort the little person.
But that said, screaming kids (and as was stated, screaming adults) happen. I can/do deal, the key for me is whether the parent makes a good faith effort to resolve the drama (problem) or whether, as was stated, they peace out on pills/booze/ipod-- ignoring and letting others cope/deal/get cross. Choice B p!sses me off to the nth degree-- a) because it's annoying/aggravating to me and b) totally unfair to the kid and c) irresponsible (not necessarily in that order... but maybe
).
A good kid (ear pops and long waits aside... b/c really who likes those), I can deal w/ on a plane. Just like a good kid at a nice restaurant. For example, my now 22 yr old nephew was born a 40-yr, I swear. The kid of middle=aged from birth and is so much like my H (related to him only by marriage to me) it's creepy. Harrison (my nephew) would have been fabulous at a 5-star restaurant since at least age 2 and he would have been rock-star awesome in business class (would have filled me in on NPR episodes I'd missed. Really). I can't imagine him crying/screaming or, in his words at age 2, "befouling" himself in public.
Long way of saying, kids are kids, parents can only help.
Team Stever. And Fricb.
I know my kid and her limitations/hot buttons. I cannot make a 20-hour drive in a car with my child and would not subject any member of my family to that (including DH) simply because she hates cars, but she loves planes and does well on them. I have flown on multiple flights with her domestically and internationally and experienced only one meltdown in almost 4 years that I could have predicted because I had to pick a crap time of day to fly.
I think it's about you as the parent knowing where you can take your child and not bother others. I hate when someone else makes assumptions about how my child will behave before they've even given her a chance.
As for the high-class restaurant thing, DD goes to nice restaurants with us often and I've seen plenty of well-behaved children at nicer French restaurants. Again, it's up to the parents to know their child's limits. If you happen to know you can't take your kid on business class or to anywhere but TGI Fridays, then you're doing a lot better than a ton of people who put their kids in situations where they are primed for a meltdown. But, that doesn't mean my child is primed for a meltdown in the same circumstances.
Actually I have just looked up a number of airlines terms and cinditions and they all had something similar to this in them (from Virgin Atlantic T's&C's):
"if you are in breach of these Conditions, objectionable to other passengers or our employees or are, for any reason, disturbing, causing discomfort to or threatening the safety or security of other passengers or our employees or any of our property; "
And
(g) behave in a way which does not disturb or cause offence to your fellow passengers;
So yes I believe everyone is entitled to a pleasant flight as set out in the T's&C's of the air carrier.
Crying baby- no problems as long as it doesn't go on for the whole flight but disruptive kids climbing on seats, chucking tantrums, throwing food, kicking the backs of seats etc then yes that needs to be dealth with.
Also you keep arguing with me when in my original post I did say that until alternative means are available (if ever) people have to suck it up becasue everyone is entitled to their seat.
Clearly we have to agree to disagree because I am certain if you asked an airline what they meant by disturbance a crying baby would not be on their list of disturbances. It also does not say you are entitled to a pleasant flight but that is fine if that is how you want to read it. And I know you said that in your original post, but you also said you wished that children weren't on planes, which just irks me to no end, when anyone says it. Quite simply I hate blanket statements like that since I fight hard to make people respect me and my children when we fly.
Also, how would you deal with kids like that? If you are on a plane, over the Atlantic, how do you deal with that? I truly wonder how often you have flights where kids are like that for the duration of the flight. Or where babies cry for hours on end. Has it happened? Probably. Does it happen all the time? Doubtful.
Hating on kids/babies who fly simply because of their age is a favorite pastime for many travelers and I am sick of it.
I don't have kids and I'm not typically annoyed by them. Sure, a crying baby isn't pleasant, but that's because we're programmed not to like that noise because it's in our DNA to care for babies. I tend to feel sympathy for kids, not irritation.
I do get irritated by those who complain about kids being normal. I was a cashier this past holiday season at Target and there'd be a kid in the store crying somewhere and you wouldn't believe the nasty things people said about how parents shouldn't have brought kids. To Target. Do these people really think most parents have another option?
And of course, you have way more options for shopping then you do for when you travel...
Now while I will admit I'd be annoyed if a random kid plopped down in my lap and his or her parents weren't watching, but that is such a rare example. A kid squirming or pacing the aisles or a baby screaming really doesn't bother me. They don't have the patience adults have developed and they have far more energy than we do. I feel sympathy for those kids, not irritation.
"I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels." -Isaiah 61:10 NKJV
I never said that I wished kids weren't on planes- I said that an option for people who didn't want to travel with kids could be good. There is a big difference there. Same as back in the day when you could choose to sit in smoking or non smoking.
At present there is only one thing that another passenger can do about a crying baby situation- not fly otherwise they just have to put up with it which can be extremely annoying or pop a sleeping tablet. If airlines had different sections then yes someone could do something about it by paying for a seat in the section they wanted and not having to put up with a situation they don't want to be in. I would say one out of every two flights I take has a badly behaved child on it. But I don't think that is to do with planes but more to do with the lack of parenting skills and indulging behaviour exhibitied by parents today.
A crying baby is on the airlines list of disturbances. Air stewards flock to parents with continually crying babies to try and help the parents settle them because it is disruptive to the environment on the plane. They walk around the cabin with them etc. Airlines are fully aware how disruptive to the planes cabin a continually crying baby is and they try and take measures to ensure that the situation is resolved quickly because the last thing they want is a cabin full of grumpy passengers. Also recently in the states an airline booted a family due to a disruptive child.
For me, when I hear that people would prefer not to have kids on flights, it upsets me. Like I mentioned earlier, it's adds to my feeling of having lost before even getting started.
If half of the flights you are on j_jaye have badly behaved kids, and you consider a crying baby a disturbance, then I don't know what to say. Kids cry. To expect otherwise is setting yourself up for disaster. Airlines haven't been kicking families out for crying children, it's because the kid wouldn't sit in their seat with the seatbelt. That's a safety issue and it would be the same for anyone who doesn't wear a seatbelt.
For me, even before I had kids, I can't think of any flight I've had where a child has caused a disruption that ruined my flight. That is to say, I know I've heard babies crying for a bit, but not the screaming, running around, climbing on seats that would be classified as a real "disruption". I think the worst I ever had was a kid kicking my seat from behind for a small bit, and that would've been something that just disturbed me not the plane. And that stopped once the mom noticed. This doesn't really matter though, because everyone has their own personal experiences that they then go on to think of as the norm.
I'm hoping that if you think this thread has gotten irrational that you aren't reading anymore.
I haven't commented too often in this thread, but as I've said... as a parent who has to deal with people getting visibly annoyed at me just because my kid is on a flight (before said kid has done anything), I don't mind the discussion.
On another note, I once had settled in my son for a nap on a international flight only to have a passenger behind me remark that my son was so well-behaved. He said it loudly enough to then wake my son. Yay! Then, when I got my son back to sleep an hour or two later, the SAME passenger did it again. And yes, my son woke up again. So maybe I'm just generally annoyed with people on planes anyway.
sadly, I have a day off today and have been sick over the past week. Which really just translates to me being tired and lazy and avoiding doing something productive. Gee,thanks for pointing it out!
Now I feel like I should go do something.
I think yes people are taking bits and pieces and inferring a whole lot of stuff. A continually crying baby is a disturbance (as in 11 hrs of a 12 hr flight) and is annoying- anyone who says otherwise is lying. A baby crying for 10 mins is nothing and wasn't what I was talking about. I also said that passengers just have to suck it up right now so I really don't understand why people are getting so worked up.
I also never said that the airlines kicked a child of for crying- I said disruptive behaviour.
What can I say you have been lucky to have great flights with no disruptive kids. Not every flight is like that. And I also mentioned that there are many other travellers that are equally annoying but posters have just gotten fixated on the kid part.
A disruptive passenger is annoyong whether they are two or 42!
Editted to say: I am a little disappointed that this has turned out to be a board where people can't just express an opinion without getting the sh*t picked out of it and chastised for having a different opinion.
Myblueangel: Yeah, I should probably be doing other things too.
J_Jaye: I haven't read through my posts, so I'm not sure if I have, but I've been most recently trying to avoid discussing other types of disruptive passengers. So, I haven't commented on that. Basically, though, I feel that there's controllable things (drunk people, smokers with perfume, kids running up and down aisles) and uncontrollable things (babies who cry, overweight people who buy two tickets). I can go on and on on that, but just don't feel like it in this post.
And while you didn't say in that sentence that kids were kicked out for crying, but for disruptive behavior, your previous comments in that same paragraph were all about crying and the measure the stewards do to try to sooth crying children. I implied that you were trying to say that kids were kicked out for crying since you had established that crying is disruptive. While you did say disruptive, what it actually was is for not buckling their seatbelts/sitting in their seat which is a safety issue. Even if the kid wasn't directly bothering other passengers, they would've been kicked off if they refused to put on their seatbelt.
Also, regarding the definition of disturbances on a flight... there are plenty of people who do think that a baby crying for 10 minutes is something. I don't want my kid to cry for 10 minutes, much less 90% of the flight! I appreciate it when people understand the difference between 10 minutes of crying and 11 hours of crying. It's the people who assume that the baby is going to disturb them, thus give me the evil eye as I'm in the process of trying my hardest to keep my kid from disturbing anyone else for even a minute, that drive me crazy. This is why I keep coming back to the post. I think it's hard for people without kids to understand that so many parents get it. I personally don't want my kid to cry because I want as smooth a trip as possible, and I don't want my kid to be upset anyway. But, it is unbelievable how I get treated by people before anything has even happened.
Do noise canceling earphones work well with crying babies? I've never owned a pair. I imagine it wouldn't work well if the kid's right next to you, but if there's just a crying kid in the cabin, does it help with them?
How appropriate!
On a BA flight with M, we were seated on the upper deck and all the other travellers up there had kids too. I don't know if they regularly seat as many families as possible up there but it was great. There were 4 flight attendants for that small space, they were amazing at helping the parents and I don't remember many kids acting up or babies crying a lot.
You can have whatever opinion you want, thus is just something I happen to feel strongly about since I travel with our kids.
I would venture to say that someone who has 50% of their flights ruined by disruptive kids probably is more sensitive to children than others. And probably has no children in their lives. On all my flights I have only seen a flight attendant try to stop a crying baby once.
Noise canceling headphones work wonders on all noises
Wow- we flew business class on our last tans-atlantic flight through dh's company - and there was not a moment of hesitation to accept because we have children! So glad we did too, it actually made the flight so much more pleasant for them (more room, etc) thus creating a more pleasant environment for everyone! My kids do tend to travel well, but if one of them were to get rowdy, we are very quick to remove her from the situation until all is sane again.
If we are offered business class again for our next trip to Ireland- YOU bet we'll be taking it!
And page 14??? WTH
Anyone else annoyed by the fact that apparently if you're rich you can expect children to be wiped out for you? And I don't even have kids! Let me reiterate my point that this line of thinking is elitist. If a mom can afford to fly first class she VERY WELL WILL and if (IF) the baby cries the other first class passengers will suck it up for a few blasted minutes just like they would if they were sitting elsewhere. Am I wrong? Does it say on first class tickets that you're guaranteed a noise/baby/younameit-free flight?
Again, agree to disagree. It is not self-righteous, it is factual. It is impossible to understand how it is to travel with children unless you have them or have nieces/nephews, etc that you travel with. Fact. You can not tell me you know what it is like to board a plane with kids while getting looks of dismay, having to pack all their crap, and keep them occupied so you don't disturb other passengers for hours and hours. In this case I do believe that unless you are a parent, or you travel with other children, you don't understand. Sorry.
And what blanket statement did I throw around? That you said that one of every two flights you take has a child who is causing a disturbance? You did say that. If it didn't bother you or ruin your flight why would you even mention it? It clearly made an impact.
Regardless, I won't argue with you about it anymore. It is clear we, two people who both travel often, have very different views on this.
Again, agree to disagree. It is not self-righteous, it is factual. It is impossible to understand how it is to travel with children unless you have them or have nieces/nephews, etc that you travel with. Fact. You can not tell me you know what it is like to board a plane with kids while getting looks of dismay, having to pack all their crap, and keep them occupied so you don't disturb other passengers for hours and hours. In this case I do believe that unless you are a parent, or you travel with other children, you don't understand. Sorry.
Sorry but you need to suck it up! Just like passengers that find it annoying when children are disrusptive. If you don't want to receive those stares then you don't have to put yourself in that situation! Also I think it is a little lame to mention packing up your kids crap and keeping them occupied- they are your kids you remember so that is part of your job as a parent! Not going to get my sympathy there- If you didn't want to do that stuff then maybe parenthood wasn't the right choice for you?
If it didn't bother you or ruin your flight why would you even mention it? It clearly made an impact
Because it bothers some people so in the same way that not every pasenger gives death stares to boarding parent it is a side to the arguement worth mentioning.
I don't know why I bother but let me explain something to you. First of all, I love being a parent. Best choice I have ever made, hands down, and my kids are pretty f'ing awesome. I laugh that you think parenthood wasn't the right choice for me because I said I have to bring a lot of crap on flights - and by crap I mean things to keep them busy and calm and tantrum free so your precious ears aren't tormented by their cries.
Second of all half of my kids family lives in another country. So, until they make hovercrafts or blink of an eye vehicles then guess what? We fly. We fly to have them see family, we fly to show them new places, to teach them about other cultures, and to make sure they don't turn out to be a total stick in the mud as*hole that gets offended when babies cry or kids run around or people disagree with them.
Make sense?
I just find it laughable that you complain about death stares but then give others who find something equally annoying a hard time. It is hypocritical.
I am gld you are happy with your choice of motherhood and I am sure you will have a great life with your children. But in fairness you were the one complaining about what a hassle it is to travel with kids (brigning their crap along and dealing with death stares) so one could infer that if you aren't prepared to suck it up then in retrospect maybe children weren't a right choice. Make sense?
The only person getting angry here it seems is you- me I find it amusing that you are getting so worked up about a difference of opinion. Its been amusing but I am over it because thinly veiled insults and name calling is really not very mature and I choose not to engage with people like that (that can't have a debate without going down that train).
Happy travels
Again, I laugh at your inference that children weren't a right choice for me. It is clear you don't get it, but that is fine, I only replied because I found what you said in your last post laughable.
Happy travels indeed - I will be the one with 2 awesome kids who won't be ruining your flights in the future.
A) FLCB if you find parenthood overwhelming I'll take the girl. She matches mine.
But for real, even good kids go bad sometimes.
This. Exactly. And it's why I think planes should outlaw seats that recline -- it's an invasion of my personal space, especially when the a$$ole in the row ahead of me slams his seat back as far as possible as soon as HIS tray is cleared away.
As for children on planes, like with everywhere else, I don't care so much as long as they are well-behaved and the parents are watching them. But my experience has been that more often than not, parents take great pains to keep infants and toddlers quiet, but once the children are over about 4, the cause is generally lost and the rugrats-to-annoying teenagers are allowed to run free. That's what I object to -- not babies, infants, or toddlers, but the unsupervised children.