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Re: Theocrats congregate to push Christian Supremacy
Fernane, you really want to start a war of throwing out-of-context quotes around? (Or, actually in your case, just linking to other people's attempts at pulling quotes out of context?)
Or instead of depending on random quotes, pulled out of context, how about we rely on the official document itself, huh? Where exactly in the Constitution is Christianity mentioned? Or even a God?
I'm going my memory here but as far as I remember, I believe "religion" in general is only mentioned twice. Once in Article VI "...but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." and in Amendment 1 "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Now, I may have missed it in my numerous readings of the Constitution, but I don't believe I've ever seen the words or variations of the words "God" or "Christian" buried in there--please, enlighten me as to exactly where that tenet is in the founding document.
Do you pledge to your country? You know, that "one nation under God?" Have you ever been to a courthouse and seen the ten commandments? Do you ever carry cash? That green stuff that says "In God we trust? " these aren't modern inventions. I'm sure the founders are turning in their graves at your comments. Seeking religious freedom is WHY they came to America!
Yes, please be so closed minded that anyone who has a different opinion is obviously a troll..mature
Please tell me you know that "under god" was added to the pledge in the 1950s during the period of mccarthyism? It wasn't there originally and it should go.
Religious freedom means not just the choice to choose whether you are baptist or methodist but the choice to free from religion and not believe in anything.
Above Us Only Sky
I disagree with Fernane, but I do have a serious question for the board. I'm not sure it's ever come up. What about the Declaration of Independence? It does mention God and inalienable rights endowed by our Creator. Does this count at all? Or only the Constitution?
I take the "endowed by the creator" phrases to be nearing metaphor, which is a poor way to put it, but the best word I can think of. I think the most important point is that our rights come from something else; not a king. No human gives us our right.
I know the founding fathers were theists. Atheism hadn't even really been conceived of yet. These just weren't men who were Puritans. They were for the most part religious in a looser sense. Thomas Jefferson made his own Bible where he struck all of Jesus' miracles.
It doesn't even so much matter that they were religious; they weren't looking to impose it on others. They spoke for their (largely religious and diverse) constituency saying that it was not up to the government to impose religion.
I'm not sure what you mean by "count" - it's an important document, but it's not where our laws come from.
Even if God is mentioned, there's no mention of Jesus, so why would people conclude that it must necessarily be the Christian God? Or that they intended the country to be a Christian nation? If it was that important, wouldn't they have said so explicitly?
In fact, in the Constitution, the basis for our entire country's laws, it mentions not once but twice the freedom of religion - both in the 1st Amendment as well as in the No Religious Test clause. That says to me that the Founding Fathers thought it was pretty important to keep religion out of government.
The founding fathering having a certain religion that they used as a way to related to others =/= a group of leaders forcing everyone to obey the exact same religious laws.
I don't care if every single founding father said "God" and "Jesus" in every sentence they ever wrote and uttered. That doesn't at all mean they want to force Christianity on the entire population.
Christian Nation = the end of religious freedom. The End.
But but but....uh....
I guess the constitution, and the declaration of independence, are very much subject to "interpretation". Take the bits you like and make it mean whatever you want it to mean, and twist the rest.
You can easily do this by saying "the person who wrote it meant something else" or "it doesn't apply in this day and age" or "its just a story". But its very important that at the same time you insist it is an absolutely sacred document that everyone has to obey.
But only if they obey it in the way you interpret it. Obviously.
Reminds me of something...
;o)
Reeve is in a silly mood today. Reeve apologizes. Reeve will stop talking in the third person.
I know this was TIC, but this is why I kinda think the entire field of Con Law is crap. No one can agree on anything and what ends up being the law is whatever 5 people on SCOTUS think it should be, usually just on the basis of their own personal political beliefs. I know there is zero chance this will ever happen, but I think that we need a new constitution to actually decide what is meant by the 2nd amendment, what rights we should actually have (instead of finding them via a penumbra), etc.
I think the Constitution was an amazing document for it's time, but it can be improved given what we've learned and how our society has changed over the last 200+ years.
*sigh* "Under God" was added to the pledge in 1954. "In God we Trust" was adopted in 1956. And the ten commandments monuments you see in so many courthouses were sent around as a blast marketing campaign for "The Ten Commandments" movie in 1956 by the director, which was piggybacked on another group who set out to get copies of them in all courthouses and schools across the nation. And saying that seeking religious freedom is what America was built on while at the same time saying you don't see the big deal with a theocracy is the height of idiocy.
You're welcome.
This 1792 penny was just sold for over $1M.
http://l.yimg.com/os/152/2012/04/20/penny-wide-jpg_212921.jpg
It says Liberty Parent of Science and Industry. Sounds a whole like "in god we trust" doesn't it?
Also, check out the Jefferson bible. Kind of devoid of that whole god thing.
As for the D of I, even over 200 years later, my atheist self uses religiously influenced language. I say "bless you" when someone sneezes. I say thank god at times. None of that means I believe in a god, nor does it imply that I want to legislate based on that belief.
At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter whether you think this country was founded on christian beliefs.
Amendment 1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
That sentence fragment bolded means that Christian Supremacy goes against the very FOUNDATION of this country.
Christians don't own the theories this country was founded on. God isn't a Christian belief - many different religions believe in God.
If you really want to get particular about it. This country was founded of FAITH not religion. To so many, religion equates hate and persecution. It doesn't matter if you're Christian, Jewish or Muslim. History is full of examples of how religion has caused war, pain, suffering, slavery, etc. Need I go on?
I fully defend your right to practice your religion but you don't have the right to try and shove your religion down the collective throat of this country.
my read shelf:
Ahh Reeve, too bad you're married....