Nest Book Club
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Am I the Only One (some Outlander spoilers)...
Who doesn't like Jamie? Not just he doesn't do anything for me, but seriously thinks he is a sadist pig and dislikes him in every way. I'm about 1/2 way through, and I want to jump into the book and strangle the man.
Seriously, this abuse of Claire is out of control.
The only thing keeping me reading is that I want to know if she makes it back to Frank.
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Re: Am I the Only One (some Outlander spoilers)...
I am totally neutral about him. I didn't dislike him (I understand the physical abuse of Claire more as a sign of the times than him being an a-hole), but I didn't care much about him, either.
Honestly, if it weren't for this board I probably would have forgotten all about him as soon as I closed the book when I was done.
I think this is probably the book that shows him in the worst light. I looked at the abuse of Claire as a sign of the times.
I think it is his sacrifice and willingness to do anything to save and protect her that endear me to him, that and the really hot sex scenes.
Luzern, Switzerland
Bios
Adventures of A. Cook
You do realize they are in a time when that was ok right? In that century is was perfectly fine to abuse one's wife, it was almost expected. I don't condone it by any means, but I think you need some perspective on when it was. Yes it's brutal and it sucks, but it's a part of the book.
2/40
Maybe they get better, but right now, all I'm seeing is Jamie being a forceful brute, and I know if my DH ever forced sex on me like that, I would be out the door so fast its not even funny.
He only "abuses" Claire for punishment since that is what men did to their wives in that time. As you can see later Claire even tells him he can punish her after something else that happens because she accepts it (I can't remember if this was in Book 1 or 2), but Jamie doesn't because he promises her he will never lay a hand on her again.
If you keep reading you will see how dedicated Jamie is to Claire - and vice versa and how strong their bond really is.
I'm with McDol on this one... this story is fairly historically accurate on numerous levels, this being one of them.
I know it can be harsh, and if you think this is bad, just wait. Seriously, this book is an astounding look at how our two cultures would clash. We as American free working women do not understand how one could go through that and how if someone loved another, how could they beat them. Now you are seriously in the seat of Claire. You ARE that modern woman, thrown into an insane situation, where she has to thrive and survive and is falling in love with a man who unfortunately saw people being hit and saw women being roughed up, and no it doesn't make it right, but it makes it accurate and honest. I've met Diana twice and each time at her readings someone like yourself who has just started goes off about Jamie's brutality and piggishness and she said once, "if he'd been Mr. Darcy or Edward Cullen, do you think I would've sold more books?" to which the audience dies laughing and the person looks sheepish.
Seriously, if he was a bowing, hand kissing, jacket laying, pantywaist, virginal momma's boy... I would not dream of him at night
Jamie's "abuse" of Claire is what was expected and normal in those times. The fact that Jamie married Claire to protect her shows nothing to you of his character? The fact that he risks his life to protect her (on nearly a daily basis, given her character)? You can't read Outlander with a modern point of view and expect it to make sense.
But because he beats his wife and gets sexual pleasure from it, you do?
I know this book is historically pretty accurate. I get that its what happened in the 1700's. You beat your wife (or your colleagues) for putting you in danger. Fine. But to get aroused by it is an entirely different matter.
But before I had started reading it, everyone on this board had put Jamie on this pedestal as a sexy, amazing, heart-throb of a man, and I'm disgusted by him.
Seriously. Lauren, we need back up!
End of Book 1? Or end of the series?
And what about Frank?!?! I want to know if he's ok. Does he know she's gone? Is he looking for her? Or is this like Narnia, where he won't even know she's gone?
Psalm, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm honestly a little floored that you're so repulsed by Jamie, but to each their own. IMO, Jamie is one of, if not THE most noble character I've encountered in all my reading. He always does what is right, whether or not it's the difficult thing to do, including beating his wife - because in his mind, it's his duty. His moral compass always points due north.
You'll have to get to book 2 to find this out.
I totally agree. I feel like Jamie is always putting others first and doing what is right no matter how or what he'll have to sacrifice for it.
I agree with what everyone else has said about the treatment of Claire being part of the times. Jamie, according to everything he'd ever seen, heard, or been taught in his life, was doing the right thing and was actually being pretty lenient. He should be judged in his context, not out of it.
Jamie is flawed. He does some things in the first three books (I can't speak for the rest yet) that bother me a lot. But that's how real humans are. I love my husband like crazy and I respect him more than I can say, but even he does things that make me want to smack him sometimes. There were points in Voyager where I was literally cringing and kind of hated Jamie for a while; then I would realize that only an unbelievably perfect fictional hero could have handled the situation in a "better" way. Unbelievably perfect fictional heroes are nice occasionally, but overall, I prefer realistic characters-- faults and all.
So she doesn't get home to Frank in Book 1? Seriously, if this is the case, I'm done. I'll read a synopsis online or something.
Not every book is for everyone. If you don't like it, stop reading.
Yeah, what Jen said. I'm not going to spoil it, but if you hate Jamie so much you're not going to like the rest of the books.
Sometimes, I feel like people forget that Jamie is a fictional character.
I understand people here love him and all but I don't think there is anything wrong with being shocked and angry about some of the things he does in the books (regardless of the century) and not liking Jamie.
I think the thing that shocks me more is the fact that Claire as a woman not born in the 1700 would (again regardless of the 'well that's what they did back then) end up living like that. I would have hightailed it right back home at that point. As a modern woman I can't see what the appeal was for her to fall in love with Jamie knowing what she knows about the future.
I couldn't finish this book... you can make all the excuses you want about it being the way women were treated "in that time in history" (and I'm not making any arguments against that) but the graphically described rape scenes really disturbed me. In general though I think its outrageous how often so-called romance novels have sex scenes like that, where it's basically against the woman's will at first but then she decides getting raped is super hot so it's not rape anymore.
Definitely NOT. That revolts me. It's everything else about him.
2/40
I am fairly ambivalent when it comes to Jamie. He doesn't float my boat but the book was well written and engaging even though it was so bloody long. I don't find him disgusting or brutal or even abusive because he spanked Claire. I also felt that in the 18th century that's how men treated their wives and it wasn't too long ago that it was still considered acceptable, I seem to recall Ricky spanking Lucy for her bad behavior once as well and that was only 50 years ago.
Furthermore, in the 18th century it was considered to perfectly normal to own people and use them in whatever way one desired be it physical labor, sexual acts, even breastfeeding children and to beat those who didn't comply. One of those men was Thomas Jefferson who is considered to the architect of our nation's freedom.
I fully agree with EliStar that reading this book with modern mentality is an exercise in futility. Just feel lucky that you were born in a time where Jamie's behavior would be completely unacceptable and be grateful for all the women who came before you that got their arses beat so you don't have to.
Why yes Psalm. I am a submissive IRL and it pleases me to no end.
Actually, if you read the book and come from the prospective of Claire, this is exactly what she would see. Diana works very hard throughout all of her books to create this world where you can fit yourself in Claire's shoes because of our own view point and how shocked we are. You are having a gut reaction... that's the point of the book.
And I'll tell ya, if Jamie came to me with his kilt askew and his ginger hair all mussed up from a fight and I was being mouthy and needed a swat, I'd bend over in a heart beat.
But its part of him as a whole. I know everyone has flaws and all that, but this is just not a flaw I'm willing to look past.
No rape is not hot. But it is a factor of life, it is a true real disgusting thing that can happen to anyone and Diana illustrates that perfectly. While I'm not a fan and I cringed during those scenes and ones of brutality, I would never ask her to take them out and I kept on reading. It was essential to the plot and Diana did it in a way that guts you emotionally, just the way it needs to be handled. During the scenes with Claire and Jamie, you have to take them in the context they were written.
Like pinky said, if you keep trying to force your modern beliefs into what you're reading, you will be ramming your head against a brick wall through a lot of great books.
Psalm - if he was an IRL man, I probably would be outta there so fast he wouldn't have a chance to woe me. lol But he's in a book, and I choose to accept his flaws and focus on the other parts.
It's like (yes I'm bringing Edward into this HAHA) if Edward was real. I wouldn't bat an eye at him and think he's a tool. But, in the book (first one I might add) he was romantic.
2/40