Nest Book Club
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Re: Am I the Only One (some Outlander spoilers)...
THIS.
I was Team Jacob for a lot of reasons, but definitely because I can't stand the "TOO good" good guy. I like my men with a little attitude and scruff and badassness. Yes, that is a word
Like Patch from Hush Hush or Jace from TMI. Those are great bad good guys!
Patch was a good bad guy. I haven't read about Jace yet. I'll have to get on that. haha
My IRL man is a soft spoken, not gruff at all kind of guy. I find those gentleman in books. A good place to put them and never physically be around. I dated a "bad guy". No thanks!
2/40
Right, which is exactly why I get so upset when I run up against it in a book, in a relationship between two characters that has already been established. It really caught me by surprise. And it doesn't help anyone for stories like this to reinforce the idea that girls should just lie back and take it and maybe they'll start to like it after awhile. So, I agree with you, it's NOT hot, and that's why it pisses me off so much when an author turns it into something sexy at the end.
In the context of this story... it made sense. I understand where you're coming from, but if you look at their relationship, the head and tension and passion and anger toward each other and their situation, it made sense in this story.
I like the way you think
The abuse and getting sexual pleasure from beating/raping your wife if what makes me so repulsed. Like Kynthos said... turning rape into something sexy sends a bad message to women that its ok to be abused.
My thoughts exactly.
So swamped at work... but you ladies called to me! lol
I don't have the time or energy to rehash this argument, but I will let DG explain her own work to the people who do not understand the incredible importance and non-sadistic-ness of this scene:
[Referring to the "wife-beating" scene]..."Frankly, this is one of my favorite scenes in that particular book. It illustrates perfectly the cultural and personal clashes going on between these two characters - clashes in which each on is absolutely convinced that he or she has the right of it - and they both do!...
"...From Jamie's point of view, his wife has - for no apparent reason beyond stubborness - flagrantly disobeyed instructions meant only to keep her safe, and has fatheadedly wandered into a situation endangering not only her and himself, but all the men with him. Beyond that, she's brought him into face-to-face contact with the man he most despises, and caused him to reveal himself in a way that will ensure determined pursuit.
"He's not only annoyed with her for her original thoughtless (he think) behavior, he's sexually outraged at its results, and - unable to deal properly with Randall - is strongly inclined to take it out on the available guilty party. Even so, he might not resort to violence, SAVE FOR TWO THINGS: his own history of physical discipline, which leads him to consider the punishment he intends on inflicting not only reasonable, but quite moderate - and more improtant, his notion of the rightness of things (which includes, though less improtant, the moral pressure of his companion's opinions.
..."He therefore declares his intention of taking a strap to her. He isn't seeking personal revenge, or exercising a taste for sadistic violence; he's trying to do justice. Historically and geographically, this was an entirely appropriate thing to do.
"..The public response to this particular scene is fascinating... some reader find it absolutely unacceptable - a "good" man, they argue, would NEVER beat his wife, no matter what the circumstance! Well, but he would. Jamie Fraser is arguably a good man, but he's an eighteenth century good man, and he's acting not only from a completely different perception of the situation, but from a completely different set of assumptions as to what constitutes appropriate behavior.
"...It is not the business of a novelist to pursue political agendas. Still less is it the business of a historical novelist to pursue modern political agendas. It deprives the reader of any sense of perspective or notion of social ambiguity, and reinforces a smug, narrow-minded belief in the self-righteousness of modern Western cultural values that is highly detrimental to the evolution of thoughts OR values.
"...Response to some material on the basis of personal experience is entirely understandable and I sympathize with such attitudes, but I can't in good conscience think them relevant to my own work."
PHEW! I cut a lot out of that and it was still a lot longer than I thought. Anyway, I completely agree with Diana and I think it's what Jamie, as a GOOD man (whether you find him attractive personally or not) would have done in that situation within the context of this story. Liking him does not mean you condone spousal abuse.
And the rape thing... ugh, I don't think I have the energy. Jamie TOLD his WIFE that he wanted to have rough sex. That he couldn't be gentle and couldn't control himself once he started. Claire nods and gives him the green light. Having a few seconds of hesitancy in the middle of it,after which she gives it back to him as good as she's getting is NOT RAPE. It's rough sex without a "safe word." If you don't want that kind of thing in your bed, fine! If you like it slow and romantic and gentle, good for you! Guess what... lots of people like to have a little domination in bed now and then. I'm not even talking crazy, kinky stuff - but come on, it's not like "being possesed by your man" is a brand new concept in romance novels.
But calling it rape is just ridiculous and frankly, insulting compared to the REAL definition of rape.
I'm sorry I can't really stick around ladies, but I'll pop back in when I can.
52 Books in 2014??
My sweet babies:
AMEN
<><
Tizzle 10/07 ~ Boppy 7/09 ~ Chicken 1/12
2014 Reading Goal: 85
THANK YOU! I especially agree with the portion about why it was not rape. I didn't know how to even begin to tackle that.
::throws tartan streamers in Lauren's direction::
I knew I could count on you!
HERE HERE! This is exactly what I wanted to say but Lauren and Diana said it better
THANK YOU!
LOL!
well said, lauren.
aw, this reminds me of why it's going to be a painful wait until the next outlander book. i so miss discussing these books with you both (lauren and eli) and the rest of my outlander fans
*snort*
Sorry.
All will be revealed.... in the end.
I'm on book 5 I think it is and I still love the series, I just had to take a break because it got overwhelming and I needed some fluffy. Then Hunger Games series attacked me. Someday soon when I have some time I want to get back to Jamie and Claire and the gang.
This is 100% true for me as well.
Thanks for the quotes Lauren.
I get that it's the time/culture/whatever, but I sitll think its repulsive and disgusting to get sexual pleasure from beating someone, whether they "deserve" said beating or not.
Rape or not rape, there is nothing about the "sex scenes" that makes me think Jamie is hot. He likes rough sex, fine... but that doesn't mean he gets to leave bruises to the point that she can't be touched.
I don't disagree with DG for putting in these scenes, because obviously there are lots of people who think the rough-sex is great/hot/swoon-worthy, and its a sign of the culture. But she did lose a reader for the remainder of the series.
And she will be the first one to tell you that she is perfectly okay with that
In all of her commentary, she is very adamant that these characters have minds of their own. I know this probably isn't what you meant, but she definitely didn't "build" Jamie the way that he is because she thought it would appeal to more people that way. I'm completely convinced that in her brain, this is simply how he turned out. I think it's the same way for lots of authors/characters. If it doesn't appeal personally to you - that's totally fine!
52 Books in 2014??
My sweet babies:
No, but she did build him to be a sexy-hero, and that he is not.
That he is not... to you. Like most of us have said, it's perfectly fine for you to not find him sexy. But shouldn't that go both ways? Isn't it perfectly fine if many of us do adore Jamie as a fictional character? We all have different personal opinions of what is "repulsive" to us, and all different degrees of how repulsive something is to us. I think the reason many of us respond a bit defensively to posts like this one is that by using terms like sadist, rape, etc. you are saying, in a very thinly veiled way, that it is disgusting for anyone to find him attractive.
I feel like you are still seeing this through your own perspective, and assuming we all see it like you do, but we've decided we don't care and you've decided you do. That's not it though - I truly think we are seeing these stories and characters completely differently, and I just think you should be open to that.
52 Books in 2014??
My sweet babies:
Ditto, this. I also agree that I don't think of Jamie as abusive ever outside of the scene where he beats her. Everything else I felt Claire was a willing participant in.
what she said. that's why I love this series and this couple--they are REAL and not fairy-tale perfect. they don't always do or say the right thing, in either of their cultures. but they talk to each other and sacrifice for each other; that's real love and real commitment. keep reading, you'll see what we mean.
Glenna Harding Photography
Claire calls Jamie a sadist. He asks what it means, she tells him, and he agrees that he is one. This is not just me calling him a sadist...
You are all entiled to your opinions, of course. And I learned a while ago on this board, I often have a very different opinions on books than many of the people here (which is why I took a lengthy hiatus from the board). If you think of Jamie in your dreams/fantasies, more power to you.
The primary reason I started this post was because I have never, on this board, seen anything besides lust and love for Jamie. I was truly curious if I was the only one who didn't see it (and I'm obviously one of very few)
Exactly Pooh!!! You are always so good with words
Plus, I'd do him. He's a sexy beast
Frank's no peach. His infidelity is alluded to in the beginning of the first book, but it's there. Claire's excuses are there - they were apart for a long time during the war, the young nurses all liked him, yada yada. Don't waste too much time feeling sorry for Frank.
With some books, you only hear one side on this board (were you here when Twilight took over for a time?). The passionate readers group together so that other readers might think that *everyone* on the board feels the same way. But that is not the case. I am pretty ambivilant about Jamie so I don't normally participate in these discussions. I enjoy the books for what they are and that is it.
The other members here respect that some some people feel passionately about a character/book and don't constantly pick a battle b/c they feel differently.
Clearly, nobody is going to change your opinion just like you aren't going to change another member's opinion. I can see that you feel very passionately about NOT liking Jamie and I think it might be time for you to move on from this series.
of course you're not the only one http://community.thenest.com/cs/ks/forums/46568986/ShowThread.aspx
clearly, outlander is not your (or everyone's) cup of tea, and that's cool.
i believe lauren did a great job providing you with a different perspective regarding the two scenes you identified, so i don't feel compelled to elaborate.
Wow! LOVE this, especially the line that I bolded. What an eloquent way to put it!
I rarely comment on Outlander either. I read the first book (and maybe part of the second?). I actually quit the series because I couldn't handle the uhm, other sexual violence. But the issue you reference also turned me off to Jamie. I could very clearly understand why Jamie felt that beating Clare was the correct thing to do in the context of that time. However, as an individual reader, the fact that he was aroused by it made me dislike him and not want to spend more "time" with him. (So I do not.
Obviously, mileage varies on this topic, and many people love Jamie dearly.