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Re: 'God Prefers Kind Atheists Over Hateful Christians'
Holy shits dude.
Welp, Christians don't corner the market on hatefulness, now do they?
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i think this is great. saved are we but for the grace of god.
Exactly. They despise something about these people's biology. You can't tell someone you hate who they are, but you love them. It's semantics.
Nerdicorns - I think I love you. Also an atheist who attends UU here. Your responses sum it up for me.
I understand the point you're trying to make, I just don't understand the vitriol with which you make it.
Not that it matters to you, but I don't think that all Christians that think gay is a sin think the way you typed it out. I think there are a lot of Christians that are able to say, "I think you're sinning, but I recognize that I sin too. I am going to work to resolve my sinning ways, and I hope for you that you would do the same, but regardless I love you."
i got the impression that it was not her own hatred but rather about proving the impact feelings like that can have on someone else.
am i wrong?
While I wouldn't phrase it the way knitty did, I think that sentiment is what a lot of gays hear coming out of the mouths of Christians. And I think they perceive it with that same level of vitriol.
That gay marriage is causing the decline of our country, that gays in the military will wreak havoc on morale and cause people to die, that gay soldiers are booed, that gay children don't deserve protection from bullying, etc.
I know that those saying gays cause natural disasters are a minority, so I won't include that in the list, but they're a very vocal one. It's not like Jerry Falwell was a nobody.
I hope you become a completely different person and deny your biology, your identity. But, I still love you, even though I just called your normal human experience sinful.
I can lie, or judge, or eat pork, or commit adultery in my mind, and that's sinful, something I'd hope to change. I can't stop being a sexual being.
Just to be clear, this is *not* my personal stance at all. I also find it to be hateful. I think it's different, though, than what Knitty typed.
To me, it's different to say, "I acknowledge that we are all sinners, and as a sinner it isn't my place to judge you for your sins," than "You're a repulsive, disgusting human and I want to vomit every time I have the misfortune of looking at you, but I love you." KWIM?
why is it different? when you point out to someone, "i hate what you do/are but i love you anyway" it's a) complete BS (because you can't hate who someone is and love who they are) and b) it's BEYOND insulting.
I get what you're saying.
I think part of being a Christian is acknowledging that we're all sinners, and that it isn't our job to judge each other.
For instance, I don't think people should kill people. I think murder is inherently bad. But, if somebody commits a murder, I don't hate them for that. I hate that they killed a person. I hate the act. But I don't hate the person.
Love the sinner hate the sin is a basic tenant of being a Christian, IMO. I think we hear it most commonly about being gay, because some people are awful and looking to justify their hatred. But I think phrase can be applied to a lot of other areas where it does make sense.
Like I said, I only took offense to what Knitty said because it just seemed so personal, and directed at AW, and I just thought *that* seemed unnecessary.
ETA: How the H did this become about Christians hating the gays?! FWIW, I think God probably does prefer kind people over hateful people, regardless of if or where or how they choose to worship whatever God or god or Godde they worship.
ooo! ooo! Can we have an "ask a United Methodist" thread? Seriously, I love being a Methodist. We're cool, love everyone, accept everyone, and yet are steeped in tradition.
Touching on the gay marriage thread, this is one contention in the church that has not been resolved. Individual clergy are all for it, and even perform wedding services. Unfortunately our council does not recognize gay marriage. It's an interesting dichotomy between the clergy and the council.
As far as the sign, that's just the general consensus of the church. We don't judge, as long as you're basically a good person. Being a phony is highly frowned upon.
I will say here that I don't blame gay people one bit for how they must feel in the face of asinine crap that does get spewed at them in the name of righteousness. GAG. To me it's not much of a step from the mentality of Westboro, and the only appropriate response is pretty much, "WhoTF do you think you are?"
The problem comes with the fact that the Bible lists many actions and mentalities and lifestyles as sinful, and sodomy is one of them. So yeah, it becomes problematic when I get into a discussion with a gay friend of mine who asks me point blank, "So, in your eyes, am I a sinner because I'm gay?" I'd have to be frank and say, "Based on my belief in God and His Word, I'd say that yes, I think you engage in sin. As do I. But my belief in God also means I have no clue what goes on in your heart and mind, though I believe God does."
Does it then come down to the idea that a person who sins is less of a person, or inferior? Well, that would be absolutely everyone, including me. But I do get why my gay friend would be offended by my opinion as stated above. I just hope the dialogue would continue from there. And for the record, yes I do believe there are gay people who receive Christ's salvation and will go to heaven. I'd be a donk if I thought my sins of being prideful or lying to others gave me a better shot at salvation/heaven than someone else's sin of sodomy.
And I'm for gay marriage being fully legal.
FTW. And if its a bitter win, so what?
After much thought, I have realized that this thread sums up what I think of as Christin thought:
"I am right, oops, I mean of course that I am doing what god thinks is right, because it says so in the bible and my interpretation is the right one. You are free to believe something different and have a different interpretation of course...but you are also wrong. Unfortunately, I can no longer kill you for your wrong belief, so instead I have to pretend to be accepting of it or make excuses for it. But really I am not okay with it at all, which is why there is a passive aggressive sting in what I write, usually saying something with the words 'but you wont get into heaven that way' because thats pretty much the only stick I can beat you with nowadays."
I think I sound kinda bitter, lol. Perhaps I should have stuck with my standard despairing "Yay Religion" comment, but even I get bored of it sometimes.
Well, you had me up until the "Unfortunately..." Not all Christians are total douchebags with murderous tendencies toward others.
pixy, I'm UM too!
FWIW, for some christians, everything is a sin. For instance, I believe divorce is a sin. I'm divorced. I believe we all have an inherent sinful nature that is more complex and goes beyond deeds. I believe everyone sins. I believe people can't help but sin. But I believe that's none of my business and between the individual and God. I also believe there is a difference between God's law and man's law and what God might consider a sin is irrelevant to man.
Ugh, I'm probably not explaining that well. I'm sorry.
I guess what I'm saying is that sin is between man and God on an individual level and as long as it doesn't put my well being or that of my family in danger or bring me drama, I don't care. So whatever I think of that sin is irrelevant and has no bearing on how I treat others.
I can't see how that's hateful. I can't see how thinking something is wrong or not the right way but not treating people differently because of it could possibly be considered hateful. It would be like saying that because I think minivans are the spawn of satan, I hate everyone who drives an SUV.
Or it would be like saying IIOY is hateful because she doesn't like old people. Unless IIOY really is shoving old people into traffic or something.
Dislike/disagreement doesn't necessarily mean hateful. Otherwise, we're some hateful biitches on this board.
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And, DP, I wouldn't view that as particularly hateful, but I can imagine it's hard not to invoke all the other messages gay people hear when you say that.
Do you ever address, in that hypothetical conversation, that you can't really stop the sin of being gay, but you can work on other sins? I think that's what makes it different for me. If someone said that being female or white was sinful, there's not really anything I can do about that, kwim?
If you were to say that I'm being sinful when I lie to H about exactly how much I spent at the grocery, or that I've been unreasonably proud at times, that's totally fair game because I can actively work on that sin. I'm totally fine with people saying that I'm sinful, and that I'm likely going to hell (if you believe in such a thing). I've heard it from close friends, said in a frank discussion, and I get it and am not offended. It's what their religion teaches.
Am I making any sense? I've had these conversations with my conservative Christian friends, and it never goes anywhere, but I think it's easier to articulate when I write.
Well, I was personally shocked when I shared a sofa bed with HAB at an overnight TIP gtg and she didn't try to smother me with a pillow, glass me, shank me, poison me, or otherwise try to murderize me. She believes in the Jesus so I thought my life was pretty much over.
You said this way better than I ever could have.
I will add that saying in response to "denying your own biology & identity" that that is what all human beings who are Christians do. The very nature of humankind is sinful so yes, one is supposed to deny that. We are all supposed to turn from our sinful ways and live as Christ directed us to... which includes loving one another.
Edited for clarification. maybe.
::screeech!:: YOU'VE SLEPT WITH HAB?!
I think the "unfortunately, now you can't murder" comes from atheists regularly hearing (it was expressed at a lecture here at UH the other night, even) that if you don't have god, how can you not murder or rape, and turning it around to the flip side of the argument.
Um, I'm not an asshoIe, and I have a moral code, that's why. I don't need the bible to tell me not to, so are you saying that you do?
FTR, I don't think any of the religious people on this board think that way. I don't think the majority of Christians do. I'm hoping Reeve was just responding to a hypothetical.
I can't stop the sin of divorce. I already am divorced and I am not going to remain single as the Bible says I should in repentence of that sin. In fact, according to the Bible, I continue to sin by remarrying and continuing to sleep with my husband.
So I guess you could say that I could stop that sin if I wanted to. But I don't and I won't.
By that token, it's sinful for anyone to have a sexual thought about anyone they aren't married to. So even if I were to never sleep with my husband again, I would still sin just by the human nature of sexuality. So while technically, I think it a sin, like DP, I place no value judgement on most sins nor do I think most of those sins say anything about the person engaged in them.
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Are you jealousE?
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Duh! My use of all caps should have shown that.
Come on, that's not fair. They're old people. Totally not the same!
IMHO, the real problems are centered not around "sins" but around believing that your path to the almighty is the only one, and if somebody else doesn't follow that very particular path, they're doomed to burn in hell for all eternity.
Honestly, growing up in a very Catholic environment, I saw more than one person pretty content to be pretty horrible, then confess it, and feel lit it was all OK to be horrible again the next week.
It's just another exemplification of what I've seen from others, from the Westboro people (who will tell you that pretty much everybody on this board will burn in hell for not being their particular breed of "Christian"), to more mainstream people who honestly believe that if you haven't "found God" or "taken Jesus into your heart" or "been born again" or whatever phrase their church uses you aren't "saved" and will end up in hell.
...and all those people honestly believe that there's a place for them in Heaven, but there isn't one for me and my family, because we don't attend the same church as they do.
IMHO, those are just as hateful. They're people who are full of hate toward other paths to God (or the Almighty, or Spirit, or Transcendence, or Enlightenment). I can't believe in any God who would have only the slightest percentage of humanity saved, or eligible for Enlightenment.
In other words, I think there are many paths to a religious experience, and if you hate the people on the other paths, and hate the other paths, you're hating the entire experience of spirituality more than a kind and loving atheist.
I am the 99%.
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