Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
A guy who needs some female advice and perspective
Hello,
I've been reading these board for many years, but just now registered because I need to make sure I'm not crazy. This is my first post, it's not me trolling or trying to start anything, I've read these boards enough to understand skeptiscism. But here goes. I've been married for just about 9 years, have two twin 3 year old girls, and am completely unhappy with our sex life.
I think I'm being reasonable in my expectations. I'm well educated, I have a good paying job that doesn't require much overtime or travel (rarely over 40 hrs per week and maybe one or two times of travel per year). I spend nearly all of my free time with my wife and kids. I come home from work, nearly all of my free time with my wife and kids. I come home from work, play with them til we eat dinner, we all have dinner together. Play with them more until bedtime where we both give our kids baths and usually take turns reading to them at night.
I do all the expected "guy stuff" (yard work, snow shoveling, insect killing, small repairs, etc) I also wash, dry, and fold all the laundry. I do all the bills. I do the grocery shopping. I would say I do the dishes maybe 1/2 the time, my wife would say 1/4 of the time, but I still do help. I don't drink or gamble or play video games (maybe flight simulator occaisionally). I don't go out and leave everyone at home except maybe once per month, AFTER our kids go to bed, I might go out with my brother and get wings or pizza and watch baseball or a movie. Again, no drinking, no bar, nothing but what I could consider wholesome stuff. I might be gone for a whole day once in the summer when we go to an airshow, and maybe once in the fall when we go to an amusement park for the day (it's our thing, we've been doing it forever). (all mostly with my brother, who is also a good guy who loves hisnieces)
I should point out that my wife does work full time also, she's a teacher, specifically the media specialist. That job doesn't require as much work at home as it did when she taught third grade. She does all the cooking, but that's on average 3-4 times per week. We usually go out once with my parents, once with her parents, and once or twice just the four of us.
We pay someone to come in once every two weeks to clean, I have no problem with that.
So I think I'm a fairly good person. But with regard to our life in the bedroom, it's miserable. I would say that a good month would be sex 2 or 3 times in a month. And that's not typical. Usually 1 or sometimes none at all. We'll do it, then a week will go by with repeated "no"s, then maybe two weeks later, then the monthly visitor arrives which shuts things down for roughly 10 days. Nothing else is done during that time since she won't do anything else.
I'd be happy with a solid once per week, or maybe 3 times in the course of two weeks. But it just doesn't happen that way. She'll get sick with a cold and be out of commission for weeks on end. Of course in that time, she's never sick enough to not see her parents.
She says she loves me, she says there's no way she'd ever consider not being married, but I'm simply not happy with this. She says it's all in my approach, that I don't ask the right way. Well, to be honest, after rejection after rejection, I have a hard time being all too involved. I'll say, "would you like to have some fun in bed?", and she gets all mad saying, "so that's the only reason you were nice" or "so that's why you wanted to hug me earlier", or something similarly hurtful.
I guess I'm just looking for some thoughts, maybe something telling me I'm not crazy or unreasonable.
Thanks
Re: A guy who needs some female advice and perspective
...another thing that I didn't include in my posting. When we do eventually do it, it's usually very good. We usually both are able to...you know, and many times we are able to at the same time, or very near the same time.
So I don't think that I'm bad in that department either.
All that sounds great. Dancing, she has no interest. Massages, she has no interest. I've tried, believe me I have. But she sees everything as me trying to get in her pants, even when that isn't my goal.
And she says she feels guilty leaving our kids in the evening because she doesn't get to see them that often anyway with her working full time.
For a while, I bought her flowers every 22nd of the month because we got married on the 22nd of the month, it did no good.
You sound like a great guy: decent, dependable, kind, considerate and loving. She's got quite the good catch --- I wish that more of the ladies on these boards would find somebody like you.
As for the below:
So I think I'm a fairly good person. But with regard to our life in the bedroom, it's miserable. I would say that a good month would be sex 2 or 3 times in a month. And that's not typical. Usually 1 or sometimes none at all. We'll do it, then a week will go by with repeated "no"s, then maybe two weeks later, then the monthly visitor arrives which shuts things down for roughly 10 days. Nothing else is done during that time since she won't do anything else.
I'd be happy with a solid once per week, or maybe 3 times in the course of two weeks. But it just doesn't happen that way. She'll get sick with a cold and be out of commission for weeks on end. Of course in that time, she's never sick enough to not see her parents.
She says she loves me, she says there's no way she'd ever consider not being married, but I'm simply not happy with this. She says it's all in my approach, that I don't ask the right way. Well, to be honest, after rejection after rejection, I have a hard time being all too involved. I'll say, "would you like to have some fun in bed?", and she gets all mad saying, "so that's the only reason you were nice" or "so that's why you wanted to hug me earlier", or something similarly hurtful.
I guess I'm just looking for some thoughts, maybe something telling me I'm not crazy or unreasonable.
You need to talk to her at length about your lack of sex life.
Get your brother to take the girls somewhere for the afternoon and discuss your problem with your wife in a non bedroom setting.
My advice is as always:
Communication is key.
And she owes it to you as your wife and partner to work on the problem with you and meet your needs.
Once or twice a week sounds great to me -- I cannot understand why she can't accomodate you with once or twice a week sex.
Sounds to me like she's got a conflict going on with sex and "putting out." She apparently sees sex as being used as a device for a service rendered; that's not a healthy way to look at sex.
I also strongly suggest joint counseling.
And a hug is AFFECTION, plain and simple; she shouldn't be all hung up on that level.
Wishing you success with resovling this problem.
If she refuses the counseling suggestion and she won't do her utmost to accommodate you, give consideration to moving on and ending the marriage. Find yourself a woman who appreciates you and everything you do. You've got a lot to offer. Good luck.
I should also point out that we dated for 5 years before getting married, and we waited until our wedding night for sex. There was some amount of non-intercourse play before getting married, but never intercourse.
She wanted to wait, and I was ok with that, that's how much I wanted to be with her. I did have concerns however, and I expressed those to her, she assured me that it wouldn't be a problem once we were married because as she put it, "we can do whatever we want then." I trusted her. Maybe that was the mistake I made.
Is there a possibility she is lesbian or asexual?
If that is not the issue, the issue may be that you and she were never sexually compatible.
And what is an issue here: respect and caring for you and what you want and what you need. She isn't holding up her end of the bargain.
You got married to have a caring partner, and that's a caring partner on all levels, in and out of the bedroom.
I am serious about giving thought to moving on and finding somebody else if all efforts that you've taken result in zero for you in the way of resolving this issue and obtaining a decent and satisfactory sex wife.
And if she does not want a divorce, she can also agree to letting you partake in an open relationship. (if, that is, that floats your boat)
What is resounding disturbing here: the lack of caring for you. She has not made an honest effort to meet your needs and make sure you are happy. How very sad.:(
The moving on part is simply not possible, at least for another 16 years or so, I just can't do that to my kids.
As I said, I was concerned for the incompatible possibility, and like I said, I expressed those concerns, she assured me that she just wanted to wait until we were married, and I trusted that.
It's become so toxic now, what usually happens is I try to initiate sex, she says no, then we fight, for HOURS, viciously. I've left home and drove around for a while in the middle of the night at times before.
Maybe we'll do it the next night, but it isn't "make up sex", it's more of a "better do it to avoid another fight". It's just a vicious circle. And she tells me that all of it would be cured if I were just nicer. Well, I've tried that, I will do everything as perfect as possible, and days will go by with nothing, and when I ask, then I get the, "see, you were only being nice to get once thing." Then a big fight.
But I can't leave, that's not in the best interest of my kids.
I've brought up counseling, she says we don't need it, that I just need to be nicer and that will somehow magically fix everything.
Is she taking birth control or other medications? They can tank your libido. Has she had a physical recently? I would rule out any medical reasons for the lack of affection.
I would talk with her and see if you can come to a compromise on frequency, but I agree that you should definitely display physical/emotional affection even when sex isn't the goal. Just talk with her. Everyone deserves an enthusiastic lover. Your expectations do not seem unreasonable to me.
What's not fair to your kids is you two fighting "for hours" over the lack of intimacy in your relationship. Is this what you want them to think a normal marriage is? Is this how you want to teach them to interact with the opposite sex? My parents modeled a couple of crappy behaviors that sabotaged quite a few of my relationships because I thought that bad behavior was normal.
Anyway, I'm with Tarpon. You need couples' counseling stat. If she refuses to go, it's obvious she's fine with the way things are and has no interest in changing. Unless you'd be happy living this way for the rest of your life, I'm with Tarpon. You need to think about finding someone who can appreciate all your wonderful qualities.
Ok...with my Ex-H I hated having sex with him. I never told him this until after I left him, but I was unattracted to him. Not due to his looks, but his personality, how he treated his family, my family, friends, our pets, how he talked down to people (EVERYONE) and how plain rude he was. If was also after the first time he put his hands on me that really turned me off...
Not saying this is the reason your wife is like this, but this is just something I went through as a different perspective. He begged, tried to massage me, be romantic, but it felt like I was having relations with my brother...I hated taking a shower with him, I never let him touch me in places...it was not fair to him as he thought it was my libido, but really, I was not attracted to him at all. I would force myself to just let him have me and tell him to hurry as I wasn't in the mood.
I felt disgusting with him. It wasn't fair to him, but I didn't have the strength to tell my EX-H "Hey I'm not attracted to you!" especially with a background of being abusive in all forms.
Good luck to you and I'm sorry I don't have any advice
. Just have a serious sit down talk to her. I don't think marriage counseling would work as it didn't for me. I felt like my EX-H and the counsler ganged up on me due to me not "having a libido" or whatever. Communication is key. I'm really sorry you are going through this... 
Also, I hated kissing him too. I would give him a quick peck on the lips too.
My boyfriend I am with now - we have a great sex life and I loooove being with someone I am so attracted to. I love kissing him, hugging him, we experiment together in the bedroom...
Like previous posts say, if you feel like you can live without intimacy the rest of your life, then so be it...don't expect a light to turn on and she pounce on your a few times a week. I really hope things get better for ya. Keep us posted!
The moving on part is simply not possible, at least for another 16 years or so, I just can't do that to my kids.
It's better the kids have parents living apart who are happy living apart than bring the kids up in a home where both parents are unhappy (and arguing like 2 tigers in a bag)
And you're willing to put up with 16 more years of the following:
As I said, I was concerned for the incompatible possibility, and like I said, I expressed those concerns, she assured me that she just wanted to wait until we were married, and I trusted that.
It's become so toxic now, what usually happens is I try to initiate sex, she says no, then we fight, for HOURS, viciously. I've left home and drove around for a while in the middle of the night at times before.
Not healthy and not good --- and this will chip away at your self esteem and how:
Maybe we'll do it the next night, but it isn't "make up sex", it's more of a "better do it to avoid another fight". It's just a vicious circle. And she tells me that all of it would be cured if I were just nicer. Well, I've tried that, I will do everything as perfect as possible, and days will go by with nothing, and when I ask, then I get the, "see, you were only being nice to get once thing." Then a big fight.
This is passive aggressive bull; can't you see that? She tells you to be "nicer" --- and from what you described, you're a prince --- and then she throws the boomerang the other way??? wow....
But I can't leave, that's not in the best interest of my kids.
But of course not.
I can't see how you can stick out 16 more years of this abuse -- and that's what it is to me: abuse. And if not abuse, she's treating you like dirt on the bottom of her foot.
For the sake of your kids, rethink this woman. Your daughters are 3 but I guarantee you they are picking up that something is wrong between Mommy and Daddy. It's an unhealthy marriage dynamic and when they're a bit older they'll get the idea that it's okay that Mommy walks all over Daddy --- that is exactly what your wife is doing. They'll grow up to be somebody's doormats --- and exactly what do you think your wife will tell the girls when it's time to explain the birds and the bees to them? Sex is no good and don't have any? that it's a unnecessary evil and go right ahead and do your "wifely duty"?
How about when they're old enough to date? What kind of boyfriends would they choose, based on the criteria of what they've learned at home from the way Mom and Dad treat each other??
You have to consider everything that is at stake -- and a great deal is at stake. It's also the well being of your daughters.
Guy, think about all of this -- and think carefully.
Think about how you've been treated.
And think about what kind of home your girls are growing up in.
From what you described, I'd be down at an attorney's office filing --- they used to call this "alienation of affection" --- I wouldn't spend one second more in the presence of somebody who doesn't want me.
Dirtyred is spot on:
What's not fair to your kids is you two fighting "for hours" over the lack of intimacy in your relationship. Is this what you want them to think a normal marriage is? Is this how you want to teach them to interact with the opposite sex? My parents modeled a couple of crappy behaviors that sabotaged quite a few of my relationships because I thought that bad behavior was normal.
You yourself defined the fighting as toxic.
Is this what you want to do for 16 more years, for the sake of the kids?? that type of attitude and outlook is positively nethanderal. This isn't healthy for you and it's not healthy for your kids.
And that your wife promised you and she would do this and that after you were married -- she patently lied to you, then. What kind of character is that and what kind of consideration for you is that?
And she will not go to counseling. That's the same as saying "I don't care about this relationship, and I don't care about us." There's not much of a chance here if she won't go to joint counseling with you.
I suggest counseling for yourself.
A counselor cah show you that what you've got is an incompatible relationship --- you and she are sexually imcompatible -- and that what you've got is a very unhealthy one, also. It's confrontational, it lacks affection and it's going to do irrepairable damage to your youngsters.
Not to mention what this will do to your self esteem and your view about yourself when it comes to sex.
I cannot see how you'd want any more of your time wasted. Why fish where the fishing is not good? And why pursue a relationship with somebody who has made it clear that she isn't interested in fixing what's wrong with your relationship?
When you got married and it was patently clear that she was not interested in having a healthy and plentiful sexual relationship, you could have moved on and had the marriage annulled in a civil court. Certainly a marriage where sex was nonexistent is grounds for an annulment.
(and this is why I am not a proponent of relationships where the couple postpones sex until marriage. It works out fine for lots of couples -- I'm not saying that you should marry the town punk but certainly if you are incompatible sexually you should know this before you invest any more time with that person.)
Y'all really need to get to counseling. You have more than just a sex issue. It seems to me that neither of you are very happy in your marriage. You need to figure out why and if it is possible to fix it.
Frankly, your life is mundane. Find a way to jazz it up a bit. When was the last time you went out on a date? When was the last time y'all did something fun together as a couple. Why not take your wife to the amusement park or to get wings and watch a game instead of your brother. Do you ever watch the kids and send your wife out to do things on her own? Could it be that she is resentful of you going and having a good time and leaving her with the kids?
If I were you, I would start off with counseling. Next, do things for her and do not expect anything in return from her. After the kids go to bed, go light candles, run her a bath and tell her to relax. Then leave her alone.
Court your wife. Why did you fall in love in the first place? It your relationship is going to work you, you have to find that again. If you can't find it, move on. Trust me, your kids will be better off in two happy homes than one miserable home. It will hurt them far worse in 16 years to find out you were miserable all this time for their sake than it will if you split up now.
We tried to talk over lunch, it didn't go very well. I said I was concerned that maybe she didn't like me or isn't attracted, she says that isn't true, that it's all how I need to be nice.
Talking usually doesn't go very well to begin with, it usually involves me trying to talk, her not responding and walking all around doing a million things, and since she doesn't respond or even acknowledge, I repeat myself, then she gets mad at me for repeating myself. But I only do that because she doesn't give me any indication she's hearing what I'm saying.
After lunch, all she seemed to have heard is that I think she doesn't like me. That's all she heard. It's frustrating.
We used to share a lot of interest. We both used to like baseball, we both used to like going flying, we used to like going to movies, but for some reason, she's changed and doesn't like any of those things anymore. I still do, I haven't changed.
Perhaps it is time to sit her down, tell her she needs to listen, and advise her that your marriage is in serious trouble. If she tells you again that "all you need to do is be nice" ask her to get more specific. Tell her....."I've tried being nice and you just accuse me of doing so simply for sexual reasons. What specific things do you define as 'being nice'? "
It sounds to me like you ARE nice. You contribute around the home, spend a lot of time with the kids, and have made an effort to have time with just the two of you but every time you try she isn't interested. A woman who doesn't like a bath? doesn't like candles? massages? What DOES she like?
You could also take the conversation COMPLETELY away from sex and focus more on how you feel like best friends living together instead of a husband and wife. Focus on the fact that you don't feel close to her anymore. Talk about all the wonderful things you used to enjoy doing with each other and tell her you want to get back to that. She needs to stop using "feeling guilty about the kids" as an excuse. Adults need adult time....period. Does she want her children to have happy parents? Then they may need to have a babysitter once a week so that the two of you can get out. Go to dinner, see a movie, go to a baseball game. Tell her you want things to be how they once were and remind her how awesome those times were.
And if she still is unresponsive then perhaps it's time to say, "We need to go to counseling. If you aren't willing to go then to me that says you aren't willing to work on this relationship with me. I'm not happy with how things are between us but I want to fix that. Do you?"
And I agree with the other posters......if all else fails and she refuses to work at this then you need to perhaps seperate or divorce. Your kids are better off in two happy homes than where they are now. DO NOT stay married "for the children"
You both are on 2 different pages in life it seems. This is similar to what I went through.
You could ask her all day if she is attracted to you and she will say yes just to keep the peace. That is what I did. I wanted to avoid confrontation and I did not want to hurt his feelings. To tell your husband that you are not attracted to him? That would not have turned out well in my situation. We both parted ways and things are so much better. It wasn't fair to him he wasn't getting the "love" and hugs, kisses, etc that someone who is attracted to him could give him. But it was also not fair for me to put up with so much BS he was blind to and pointed the finger at me for everything. "You this, you that". You seem like you are really looking things over and analyzing well and seem the like the type of guy that would admit you were at fault...
Follow your heart...talk to a counsler if you think it would help, or go your seperate ways as much as it would hurt.
GL to you...
Honestly, she has already left you. She's left you physically by withholding affection (not just sex) and she's left you emotionally. She's shut you out and down.
Don't stay married because of the kids. Kids pick up on problems in a marriage faster than anyone, faster than the parents.
I'd give your wife an ultimatum. Counseling or separation/divorce.
You can't live like this.
Part of me is wondering if reading the 5 love languages for both of you would be good. For me, when my oldest was that little, it was all about the things he did to take things off my "to do" list that made me feel loved and more in the mood. But, I also found it hard to think of myself as sexy and mommy at the same time...which took awhile to resolve especially when I still had the baby weight on.
I'm totally wondering what she means by being nice....what??? Flowers?? Saying nice things to her? I have no idea from your description and she hasn't been forthcoming either.
I would tell her that you are extremely unhappy and unless she goes to couples counseling with her, you are miserable and you don't want your girls to see that a marriage should be fighting or silent, or alienating or any of those things...you want to be a good role model of what they should look for in a marriage. Tell her she HAS to go. She has some sort of walls up....was she this uncommunicative before you got married??? Does she think sex is dirty? or just for procreation??? Is she on meds that could affect her libido...I was and that was really hard.
Honestly.... I know you think you should stick this out for the good of the kids.... but I grew up in that household.... please don't do it to your kids...it messes them up more than if you move on and find happiness separately.
It's ultimatum time... she has to start talking and you guys have to figure this out. It's important to you... so it has to be important to her.
Definitely this.
I'm very sorry, but your wife does not want to have sex or be intimate with you. This is not good and there really isn't a lot you can do.
I don't think she is in love with you, honestly, and I agree she has already checked out. Maybe she has issues or is gay, but I think you need to seriously rethink the staying for the kids thing. The kids will sense you are miserable and I doubt you will be able to handle it for another 16 years-or you wouldn't be posting here. Then you will have ten year olds you will have to break the news to....much harder.
I speak from experience here. Believe me, transitioning my 2 and 4 year olds has been cake comparing to what it would have been if I had waited ten years.
He and she don't even count as friends! Aren't friends considerate of one another and mindful of each other's feelings?
He's tried flowers, baths, massages, you name it; none of this cuts the ice with Her Highness. Very sad.
And she's said "be nice" --- he's done that too and he gets accused of doing it only to obtain sex. What's her story, then?
She disregards his feelings and she will not sit and listen when he lays his cards on the table. He's done all he could' what more does she want?
Wow. What did this woman DO before she had the kids? It really sounds like she has zero interests outside of them, and that's not healthy. (I mean, duh, you love your kids and all, but they shouldn't be your entire life because then when do they get a chance to have theirs?)
And give me a break with the 'you didn't ask the right way' crap. She needs to fcking tell you how she wants you to ask because you're not a mindreader. But if she refuses to try to fix this, you and the kids will be better off if you get a divorce. As PPs said, better that you parent well together and live separately because living together is clearly not working for your family.
It's worth a try. We've tried to read books before. We read a few that have lots of information on how to make things better, however each of those books has a chapter on sex, and they all basically say the same thing (most of it has been repeated in some form on this thread), and that is the chapter that she seems to typically have the least interest. Lots of what she reads is, "see this is what you do wrong"
I should also say that she DOES say that she likes doing it, and that she wishes we did it more often. I just have a hard time believing that because I sure as heck am not the one saying no.
I like jogging, but I don't like jogging when it's too cold. So when it is cold, I'll use any excuse to NOT go jogging. That's what happens with sex. I have a cold, I'm too tired, I'm worried about work, I'm worried about the party, my knee is sore, my head hurts, I'm worried about having to return this dress, I think I might have pink eye, etc etc etc.
It just seems like someone who is searching for an excuse to get out of it. And none of those things EVER stop us from going to visit her parents once per week.
Gee.
But isn't it wonderful to have a spouse, a friend a soulmate and a gentle critic!
She can't even put a positive spin on it, like "Honey, it would be so hot if you tried this...." and then showed you what it was you should TRY?!?!
She's as subtle as an avalanche.
And as for this:
I should also say that she DOES say that she likes doing it, and that she wishes we did it more often. I just have a hard time believing that because I sure as heck am not the one saying no.
This is a teaser if there ever was any. She continually talks about it but all it is is lip service.
Why are you tolerating this?
I like jogging, but I don't like jogging when it's too cold. So when it is cold, I'll use any excuse to NOT go jogging. That's what happens with sex. I have a cold, I'm too tired, I'm worried about work, I'm worried about the party, my knee is sore, my head hurts, I'm worried about having to return this dress, I think I might have pink eye, etc etc etc.
Again, why are you tolerating this? She's using every excuse in the book to put you off!
It just seems like someone who is searching for an excuse to get out of it. And none of those things EVER stop us from going to visit her parents once per week.
Did I mention she's selfish too?
I see no indicator here at all whatsoever that she has any feelings for you or that she has any love for you.
What good is she to you?
This is now my question -- and my next one is this:
Why in love of all holy are you tolerating this horrible treatment?!