Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Christian wives submitting
On a previous thread I mentioned that I strive to submit to my husband as a Christian women. I got a lot of negative feed back so I wanted to explain what the word submit means to a Christian wife. There is a stereotype that surrounds Christian marriage that I believe to be very wrong and a poor judgment. Everything here is what my husband and I believe to be truth and is how we live our marriage. I have no issues answering any questions. This OP is not however me telling anyone else how their marriages should be or what their beliefs should or shouldn't be. I am simply try to clear up some misunderstandings on our faith.
Biblical marriage from a Christian perspective is that men and women were created equally in God's image. We are equal in the eyes of God but have separate roles in this life and very different needs and characteristics as men and women. Biblically the man is placed in a role of being the head provider and spiritual leader of the home. The women is placed next to the man to be a helper and work with him as a team. Biblical marriage is not a dictatorship men are called to love their wives as Christ loved the church, and as we know Christ died a horrible death on a cross for the church. Being a husband is not a role to be taken lightly or easy to fill they are held to a high standard by God even giving up his own life for his wife if needed. A husband is not called to be abusive to his wife or muffle her voice they are called to work together hearing both opinions. A women is called to respect her husband and his choices but this is only if they can not come to an agreement together first.
Biblical marriage does not mean that the women should be at home cooking and cleaning with a baby on her hip either. God takes into account different families and different situations. Even women in the Bible worked for their families and brought in money for support. If a man isn't the main bread winner that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't providing or leading his home in other ways. Financial is not the only way to provide but it seems to be the one we get caught up on the most. But to not provide at all in any way is not an option scripture is clear that a man who does not take care of, lead, or teach his family is worse than an unbeliever. A father needs to be there for his children and for his wife.
People often think that if a women is submitting to a man in marriage he has the right to walk all over her and abuse her. That men are catered to as Gods and can do whatever they want with their families but that is not correct at all. It is the opposite in practice men are called to be supportive, loving, and loyal placing nothing above his wife and family except God himself.
This is an article that I believe explains our position on Biblical marriage very well if you are interested in reading it....
http://theresurgence.com/2011/12/20/complementariwhat
"A women who can kneel before the Lord can stand up to anything"
Re: Christian wives submitting
So what's the point?
FYI: there was no "church" around the time of Jesus' crucifixion. So what "church" do you refer to?
At 23 you're wet behind the ears. Come back in about 15 more years, then we'll talk.
Did you read the OP because I gave a very clear point for this thread. And in this case age is not a defining matter. Jesus was sent here not only to die on a cross but to prepare the church. His disciples were being taught how to follow in his foot steps once he was gone. The church did start with Jesus and his ministry.
In all honesty I don't get the point of your reply here. You have made a bunch on meaningless points that have nothing to do with anything.
"A women who can kneel before the Lord can stand up to anything"
So what happens when husband and wife are COMPLETELY on opposite sides of a debate that has to be decided one way or the other, where a compromise isn't an option?
What if H wants a child and W does not?
What if H wants their child to have cancer treatment and W does not?
Does the husband get his way because he's the leader of the home and he considered the wife's point of view and rejected it? Because that's how it sounds. If that's the case, it seems like a very condescending relationship. If, when it comes down to black and white issues, the husband always has the final say, to me that means "Aww I'll listen to your cute little womanly thoughts and consider them if they're sort of in line with mine. But if not, I'm really just pretending to entertain your silliness before making my decree."
As a Christian and a wife I have problems with this post. First of all my H does not have the end-all-be-all say on things for our marriage. While I respect his position as the "head of the household/family" he does not control everything that happens.
Second as a Christian I have a problem with the way that verse is always taken out of context. Yes it says that wives should submit to their husbands, but it goes on to say that everyone should submit to Christ. Second it states that husbands should revear their wives and love them as one loves his own body.
Now if we are to take everything in the Bible literally then my H and I should not be married as he is not a Christian, thus we are uneavenly yolked. Yet he is a better person and treats me better than my exs who were Christians. We should also not eat pork and if your H dies and he has a brother who is unmarried then that brother should marry you. There are many laws in the Bible that come from a time where women had no rights or ways to protect themselves and it was the norm for husbands to have complete control over their household. It is easy to forget that the Church preaches certain values but ignore others.
Love this!
No because major issues of children, faith, education all of that were talked about before marriage. We also believe in marrying other believers for this reason. Because you are more likely to agree on these big issues with another Christian with the same morals and faith than with someone who is not. You still need to know the person you are marrying and you still need to have a connection and a great relationship and friendship with this person. That obviously cuts down on huge life changing disagreements in a marriage.
But if something major does come up then we believe the Biblical process is to first talk about it as a couple lay everything out for one another first. If that doesn't work then you take it to a mediator a pastor or a counselor. If they still can't help you come to a compromise or an agreement. Then the final choice is left up to the husband to do what is best a wife should trust that her husband has her families needs and best interest at heart. And knowing that he is a Godly man will take into account God's will and not just his own.
Most things never get that far as we are in agreement the majority of the time. We have been married going on three years and have only hit the mediator stage once so far and that resolved it.
"A women who can kneel before the Lord can stand up to anything"
You clearly didn't read what I wrote as I was very open about the fact that the man does not have complete control. And that God should always come first and then wives and family. And I was very clear that any scripture I drew from was New Testament we no longer follow Old Testament laws.
As for church I am sorry if you have been burned in the past. But my church says what it means and means what it says. None of us are perfect and Gods design for marriage takes a lot of hard work and a lot of mistakes. My husband and I are working at it and learn new things every day it takes years to get it right. But this is the model that we strive for and it has made us want to be better people for one another and for the glory of God.
"A women who can kneel before the Lord can stand up to anything"
I guess I just don't get why people are so offended/threatened/defensive about the idea of "submission." It doesn't mean sit down and be beaten...or walked all over...or have no voice. In my own marriage I'm about to graduate law school and start my job as a lawyer (I'll be the breadwinner), I have the stronger personality, and I just have stronger convictions. All things considered, I have a stronger stereotypically "masculine" personality than my easy going husband does.
In preparing for our wedding, we discussed these verses (among others) as we learned about our roles as H and W. When asked, I told our pastor that if he wanted to talk about wives submitting to husbands during the meditation for our wedding ceremony, I was not the least bit upset by that. And he went on to do so. I'll happily submit to my husband with the expectation that he'll love me with the deep, sincere, and sacrificial love that Christ loved us, as the verses also call for.
I get that some people live by these verses strictly according to the meaning of the words on the page (as we have them translated). And I get how that can appear as though it calls wives to be lesser than husbands. My H and I choose to live this in what we believe to be the full context of its meaning. There's no power struggle...it's a combination of deep love and reciprocal care for one another. (Like another poster commented, we have talked about the "major" issues (children, faith, etc.) pre-marriage. I wouldn't have married someone who I was fundamentally incompatible with.)
Also, if anyone has the time and desire...do some quick research on the pre-translated meaning/context of the words used. It's interesting, to say the least. I'd give references, but I did this research back in college and my books on this topic are at my parents' home (where I am not) at the moment. "Submit" is simply the best word we have to parallel the intended meaning of the original phraseology. I wonder if people would be less offended if they knew the full background/context/meaning of the original language.
Thank you for sharing and being understanding of what I was trying to say. The word has had such a negative association with it for so long and for very misguided reasons. It is something that really needs to be changed in the mind of the public because this is how Christians practice marriage not this idea that men are God that is way off base. Also Christians have sex and healthy sex lives that is another judgement I get all the time. They seem shocked that we do that LOL. I am always like yes we have sex just like any other married couple does. =]
"A women who can kneel before the Lord can stand up to anything"
As a Catholic all I will say here:
The Bible was written by men. Good Luck with this.
Yes but as a Catholic do you not believe that it is the true word of God. Written through men with God's divine intervention and inspiration?
"A women who can kneel before the Lord can stand up to anything"
And interpreted by men. So yea, good luck.
::high five::
See you're saying no, the husband doesn't have the final say and one paragraph later you're saying he does. You can discuss all the possible scenarios you can think of that might arise in life before getting married but 1. You didn't think of all of them and 2. You don't really know how you'll feel and act until you're in them. So eventually you will run into something that you disagree about and you admit that in that case, he wins by virtue of being male.
I trust my husband completely. I trust that he takes our family's needs into account and always has our best interest at heart. Doesn't make him perfect and doesn't mean he's always right or always makes the best decisions. You can have all the good intentions in the world and still make bad decisions. That's true of men and women. So I stand by my assertion that this just seems like a really condescending relationship dynamic to live in. If it makes you happy, more power to you. But I'd be running for the hills screaming if I knew my opinion only counted partially as much as my husband's for the rest of our lives.
So... why are you still Catholic, exactly? If you have such a cynical view of the source of the Bible and the Church's interpretation of it, then why are you still in it? The Church clearly still holds something for you, some nugget of truth that attracts you or comforts you or moves you, or else you would have made a switch. Such issues are not to be taken lightly, and if you have a problem with your church, then you either need to find answers that satisfy your doubts... or leave. The door is open.
I honestly believe in the principles you're explaining here, but I would suggest that the word submit be swapped out for the word support.
Submit has an extermely negative connotation, that lends toward an antiquated view of men having absolute authority, it also tends to sound more like a one-way thing.
Support is absolutely a 2-way street, as everything in a marriage should be.
Submit is just fine as long as you understand the true meaning, which is not to be a doormat and do as you are told. If a husband loves his wife as Christ loves the church (and submits to Christ), then the wife will naturally submit to her husband. In this way, submission is not at all a one-way street.
The greek word used for submit is hupotasso, which translated means "to arrange under". In our everyday lives we are required to submit, or arrange ourselves, under certain authorities. It means to yield control to a person of authority. This could be your boss, an elder, or the government. When we were children, we would submit to our parents. But being in submission also requires humility, which is a key component in how it applies in a marriage relationship.
The Bible calls for everyone to humble themselves to one another, so it is not something that only a woman is to do for her husband. While the man is the head of the household and is thus to be respected by the wife, the man must also be able to humble himself before the Lord and others. If a man has too much pride within himself, then I can only imagine that he would constantly overrule his wife's opinions or insights when he doesn't agree, and hence you run in to the problem that other people have mentioned. Therefore, for wives to submit also means that they should humble themselves before their husbands.
I love this quote by Matthew Henry: ?The woman was made out of Adam?s side. She was not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be loved.?
If a man loves his wife as Matthew Henry has described, then there is no need to fear submitting yourself to your husband. When a man treats his wife as an equal (hence why "two become one" and why the Bible also says a man should love his wife just as he loves his own flesh) and loves her, then the wife will naturally submit to her husband as the head (or leader) of the household.
*Sources come from GotQuestions.org*
Like I said its a process before it ever gets to that point. But the bottom line is a women doesn't keep quiet and have zero say. And yes men have flaws and yes they make mistakes but you learn through them together. Nothing about this design for marriage is easy or without mistake. It is something we strive for and learn from everyday. But we have a goal we are working toward and structure to us that is better than flying by the seat of our pants.
"A women who can kneel before the Lord can stand up to anything"
They were not equal in the culture or society of those times but that was not Gods doing that was the sin of man. As for creation however we were created equally in the image of God. God loves his creation equally no matter man or women.
"A women who can kneel before the Lord can stand up to anything"
Exactly I was always told not to marry a man I couldn't follow. It causes a ton of strife.
But yes people often think the man can do whatever and his role is lax but its not at all as I explained in the OP. A husband is held to a high standard and will be judged more harshly by God. If a man is loving God and having a relationship with God he will lead his family the right way and the wife will have no problem following him in that. Now if he becomes abusive or tries to lead his wife into ungodly things she is called to obey God first so her husband doesn't mean squat at that point. God comes first and if a husband is doing what he is suppose to then a wife can follow in her role easily.
"A women who can kneel before the Lord can stand up to anything"
I've read this whole thing with an open mind and I still can't get behind it. Swapping words or re-explaining it a thousand different ways doesn't change the fact that - should push come to shove - the man gets the final say because he's a man. Call it support, call it submit, say it's written in the Bible, say whatever you please and dress it up any way that makes you comfortable, but it still seems to come down to that one little point.
Some women will be okay with that and some women won't.
I - for one - am not okay with it.
OP- Give it up.
I 100% agree with everything you said but people who don't share our faith WILL NOT GET IT. I mean there is nothing that you can say to change their minds. They read this and think it is absolute bull just as I read non-believer's comments and think it is bull.
TTC since September 2012
Yes, you're right, Christians should not marry non Christians so I question how strong your beliefs are since you married a non-believer. I could never marry a man that was not a Christian because I know that I would go through things in my marriage that could have been avoided or even worse, my marriage may end in divorce because he doesn't share my beliefs.
Getting married unequally yoked is a scary thing. Good luck.
TTC since September 2012
You're interpretation is dead wrong. If that was the case, I would agree with you and say that sounds like a crappy arrangement.
TTC since September 2012
Sorry, you don't know what you are talking about. Men and women are created equal in God's eyes. Mankind has treated men and women unequally.
TTC since September 2012
I responded before reading all the comments, so now that I've read them all, I just wanna say *Lisa2008boo*, you rock! I wish I could just give you a big high five!!! My irl friends are Christians, so we share the same beliefs, but it's so refreshing to have someone on this message board who shares my beliefs and I get "happy" whenever I come across another Christian.
Have a great day!
TTC since September 2012
The amount of cynicism in your tone makes me a little sad. The picture of marriage that you've painted (not the same as the one she painted, which I'll get to in a moment) is of a marriage that's a constant struggle for power, and the only way that the two of you can both be happy is if the power scales are balanced perfectly, 24/7. What about the happiness that comes from making your partner happy? What about the deep joy of self-sacrifice, which God calls you both to? The original poster said nothing about letting her husband have the final say ALL the time. She simply explained that it makes her happy to submit to his decision if it seems that that's the only way the argument is going to be settled. She has discovered the joy of self-sacrifice, and thereby brings peace and life to her marriage. I cannot speak for what her husband brings to their marriage, because he didn't make a post about this. To assume that he just walks all over her because she chooses to submit sometimes is just as much a fallacy as it is to assume that his favorite color is red. There's no way you can know that from her post.
Regarding the Bible's teaching, let me say this. The Bible recognizes the inherent ability of women to be self-sacrificers, to give of themselves with patience and joy, to embody love, which "endures all things, hopes all things, believes all things," etc. A person cannot even begin to understand what Christ did for humanity unless they first understand the concept, the beauty, and the dignity of self-sacrifice. THAT, more than anything, is what this Bible passage calls wives to do. It's not about being a doormat. It's about doing something that is reminiscent of Christ. Men have the ability to do this as well, but women have shown over and over, through countless millennia--yes, even before the Bible--that they do it so much better. That is why the Bible also says "A capable wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he will have no lack of gain." The wife in a traditional Christian marriage is not underappreciated by any means.
I teach catechism to a class of 9th graders, and they also come to me frequently with "Well, what if ______?" questions. What I tell them is this: in every trial of our lives, great and small, God has two goals. The first goal is to draw whoever is involved closer to Himself. The second is to help those involved to grow in whatever ways they need to grow--in patience, in love, in humility, in generosity, etc. God is intimately familiar with the workings of your heart; after all, He made you. And, as we know, every person is different, and each person's needs are as varied as the shells on the seashore. So to ask a hypothetical question about hypothetical people who may need to grow in a way that only they and God can possibly know... those types of questions are not really the RIGHT questions. There is no single right answer, no hard-and-fast rule for every hypothetical situation. There are general guidelines regarding how married couples treat each other, but after that, how you make decisions together is ultimately between you and God. I cannot say for certain what the Church would recommend for the couple where the H wants a child but the W does not. Each situation is serious and special, and a priest or counselor may offer completely different advice to any two couples facing the same situation. However, there is one piece of advice that would likely remain the same: pray. Talk to God, and talk to each other. The Bible says that, too.