Married Life
Dear Community,
Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Our tech team has launched updates to The Nest today. As a result of these updates, members of the Nest Community will need to change their password in order to continue participating in the community. In addition, The Nest community member's avatars will be replaced with generic default avatars. If you wish to revert to your original avatar, you will need to re-upload it via The Nest.
If you have questions about this, please email help@theknot.com.
Thank you.
Note: This only affects The Nest's community members and will not affect members on The Bump or The Knot.
Re: Christian wives submitting
Well, well, well stated. You nailed it.
Thank you for the support from the other believers. My prayer is that these misconceptions will some day change when it comes to Christian marriage. You would think that the very testimonies of Christian women who are happily living this lifestyle would be enough for people but I guess not. After all we are just brainwashed religious women with no opinions or backbone. ( eye roll)
Funny thing is if anyone here knew me in person you would know I am very opinionated and a very strong women. My husband loves and respects that in me he didn't marry some quiet shy girl. Yet we are practicing and striving toward Biblical marriage every day. Obviously it can be done even with a women who has a voice.
"A women who can kneel before the Lord can stand up to anything"
You do realize that most of us who feel like this is an antiquated, condescending way to live aren't just lunatics making bizarre decisions left and right, right? Nothing about any design for marriage is easy. Relationships take work no matter how they're structured.
I don't have a problem with the fact that you want to defer to your husband's opinion when you disagree if that's what you want to do. And it's great that so far it hasn't hit that point yet. My point is that eventually you will come upon something you disagree about and I don't think it's fair that the husband gets his way in that situation simply because he has a penis. If you think that's okay and it works for your marriage, go for it. I just can't fathom knowing that my opinion will matter less than his in those situations and being okay with it.
I have no idea where you're getting that marriage should be a power struggle for 24/7 equality from what I said. Mine certainly isn't. When there are things we disagree on, one or the other of us ends up getting their way. Sometimes it's me, sometimes it's him. I've never kept track of who's "winning".
And no, OP didn't say she defers to her husband all the time. But she did state outright that on the rare occasion they are at complete odds, she will defer to him because he's the man and it's his decision and she's happy to let him make it. I could never, ever live that way. I need to feel like my opinion matters just as much as my husband at all times, not just most of the time. I never said her husband walks all over her. I was just stating why I personally could never deal a situation she feels is fine for her marriage. If it makes her happy to wash her husband's feet nightly and wait on him hand and foot, I really don't care at all. If she'd rather sit on her butt and have him do those things for her, I don't care either. Or anything in between. Whatever floats your boat. It doesn't effect me. But I thought the point of this thread was to clear up confusion about the OP's concept of submission. I was asking for clarification and what I ended up with was "No you're wrong and this is why" and then a long explanation that, to me, seems to solidify my interpretation of her OP, not dispute it.
And I appreciate the Bible lesson but I have a degree in Religion with a concentration in Women's Role in Christian Traditions. So I'm not exactly ignorant about the subject. Which is why I'm an agnostic.
there is no misconception. We read your posts. We get it. Your husband is not abusive. You guys love each other. You discuss major things together, and both of you get to have your side heard.
However, you also said that in a situation where you guys cannot reach a mutual agreement, and you have gone through all the necessary steps (outside mediation, etc.) that your husband would have the final say because as the man, he's the leader of the family.
if the above is true, I am not okay with it. It does not matter that it happens only very rarely. It does not matter that my husband has the family's best interest at heart ( wouldn't I, too?) . The fact remains, no matter how you try to redefine or justify it, in the above scenario my opinion is not worth as much as my husband's because I'm a woman. And no, I'm not cool with that. Frankly, I fail to see why any women would be cool with it....unless she figures she has no choice, because it's god's will.
Again, I am basing my response entirely on the information you have given, and not on any preconceived notions. I have listened to you and tried to keep an open mind. Now, can you honestly say you have done the same?
I like how everyone who disagrees with you is a "non-believer."
For the record, I'm a Christian and I still disagree with you. I love and respect my husband, but he does not automatically get the final say at any point in any disagreement simply because he has a penis. Do you know why there are misconceptions about Christian marriages? Because there are still people in this world who do take the idea of "submitting," out of context. I'm glad that you think you aren't one of those people, but to think that those people aren't still out there is naive.
Well I would be what is known as a
Cafeteria Catholicism
The term cafeteria Catholicism is applied to Catholics who dissent from Roman Catholic doctrinal or moral teaching. Examples include Catholics who dissent from Church teaching in regards toabortion, birth control, divorce, premarital sex, masturbation, or the moral status ofhomosexual actions.
I was born into the Church and use my God given right to think outside the box. My Grandmother and Mother both as devote as can be also follow this line of thinking.
May I ask what's the big deal in letting your husband make a decision that you are not 100% in agreement with? You sound like you feel degraded as a women if you do that.
If you and your husband cannot come to a compromise, either you or your husband are going to get their way. Do you feel that you should always get your way if you can't reach compromise? If you let your husband get his way, do you feel less than a woman? I mean I really don't see the big deal.
" However, you also said that in a situation where you guys cannot reach a mutual agreement, and you have gone through all the necessary steps (outside mediation, etc.) that your husband would have the final say because as the man, he's the leader of the family."
MH would have the final say because he as the husband is the head of the household and it is his job to stay in prayer with God to make the best decision for our family. As Op has already stated, God holds husbands to a higher standard and judges them more harshly. My Christian husband understands this and that makes it easier for me to trust that he is making the right decision for our family.
" in the above scenario my opinion is not worth as much as my husband's because I'm a woman."
It's not that your opinion is not worth as much because you are a woman. The husband is to love and respect his wife, therefore, your opinion does matter. The husband is not just playing a role and pretending to be listening to you. The Christian husband is taking your opinion to heart and takes it to God in prayer and with the help of God, he will make the decision. You may ask why cant you do that. Because it's not your job/role in the marriage to do so.
We are a team. We work together. In every team, different people have different roles right? The quarter back and kicker have their own different roles on the team. What do you think will happen if the quarter back decides to do the kicker's job. Not going to work. Same thing in my marriage.
PS- I know you weren't talking to me, but just wanted to give my point of view.
TTC since September 2012
*Quote snippet from Kimbus*
"And no, OP didn't say she defers to her husband all the time. But she did state outright that on the rare occasion they are at complete odds, she will defer to him because he's the man and it's his decision and she's happy to let him make it. I could never, ever live that way. I need to feel like my opinion matters just as much as my husband at all times, not just most of the time."
The wife's opinion does matter all the time, not just most of the time. If you and your husband have a disagreement and he goes along with what you want, does that mean that you don't care about your husband's opinion? I'm sure you listened to him and thought about his view on the subject yet still went with your way.
The same is when a wife is submissive to her husband. My opinion matters all the time. The husband will hear the opinion of the wife all the time and if no compromise can be made, with the help of God, he will make the decision. Who knows, after prayer, he may end up going along with what his wife said.
TTC since September 2012
There's nothing wrong withe letting my husband make a decision that I am not 100% in agreement with. I don't think I said anything that would suggest otherwise. But in our marriage, that goes both ways. Sometimes my husband has the final say; sometimes I do. If it did not go both ways, I would have to wonder if my husband really viewed me as an equal. And I'd prefer to spend the rest of my life with someone who views as his equal.
I never said that I expect to get my way all of the time. Of course I don't. When my husband and I have a disagreement, we sit down together and try to reason it out. Usually, one of us will actually convince the other. Other times, we compromise. If neither of those outcomes is possible, then one of us will defer to the other. Who defers to whom simply depends on the situation. As an example, we could not agree on whether or not to circumsise our son. We did some research together, but neither of us could be convinced of the other's position. Finally, my husband said, "Look, as a guy [who is circumsised] I understand this differently than you do. I should have the final say on this." I had to admit he was right about that. Eventually, I let him have his way. I'm not thrilled about it to this day, but I know my husband wanted to do what he felt was best for our son. I get that. I also know my husband would extend the same courtesy to me, if the roles were reversed. I may play a similar card if we ever have a daughter...
You say that the man is the head of the household because your god holds men to a higher standard, and therefore judges them more harshly, than women. I'm not religious so that doesn't mean a whole lot to me, but let's just assume for a second that all of that were true. I'd have to ask, why doesn't that god hold men and women to the same standard? If he created men and women equally in his image, why are the standards different? I will wait to hear your answer on that before I comment any further there.
I understand what you are saying about men taking the women's opinion into consideration when he prays/ asks for guidance in making a final decision. However, if I were in that scenario, I would be uncomfortable with the fact that my husband would have this special ability/job of talking directly to god, and all I can do is give him my opinion and wait to hear what the final outcome is. I get that it is natural for a husband and wife to assume different roles in a marriage--but I think a husband and wife should at least get to choose these roles for themselves. In your belief system, these roles seem to be decided for them by God. Again, this just doesn't strike me as very appealing. I would rather my husband and i decide these things for ourselves, based on our individual strengths.
You say you and your H are a team. But what you are describing sounds to me more like an employer/ employee relationship. Yes, it may be a relationship in which the employer loves and respects the employee, and wants what's best for her. But the employer is still the employer, and he has a power that the employee can never have herself. My husband and I are more like partners running a business together. We have different strengths and play different roles, but at the end of the day, we are equals.
Look, everyone has to decide for themselves what kind of marriage works for them. Just please understand that automatically designating one's husband the head of the household isn't desirable for everyone.
Oh and it's also not for you to say that I should leave the Church. I have completed every Sacrament except obviously the last one. When I went into my interview with my parish priest before confirmation I discussed my thinking and thought on certain issues. He obviously didn't think I want or need to leave the Church. I also signed a contract with the Church to raise all children within the Church when I got marrird. I don't and will never take that lightly.
*Greco*
" If he created men and women equally in his image, why are the standards different?"
Men and women are created equally in God's eyes but in marriage, the husband and wife have different roles. The wife is not to feel inferior to the husband just because her role is different.
"You say that the man is the head of the household because your god holds men to a higher standard, and therefore judges them more harshly, than women. I'm not religious so that doesn't mean a whole lot to me, but let's just assume for a second that all of that were true. I'd have to ask, why doesn't that god hold men and women to the same standard?"
God judges the husband more harsh if he doesn't fulfill his duties properly because he gave the husband such a great responsibility of heading the household. Example: Lovie Smith (Bears coach) got fired because his superior felt that he was not leading the team properly. I take that to mean that the team would be better if they had a better leader, so the leader got fired (judged more harshly than the players). I hope I made sense because it made sense in my mind. Lol.
"However, if I were in that scenario, I would be uncomfortable with the fact that my husband would have this special ability/job of talking directly to god, and all I can do is give him my opinion and wait to hear what the final outcome is."
As the wife, I can talk to God just as my husband can. A wife's prayers for her husband are very powerful. The husband may have the final say if we cannot come to a compromise, but the wife is not to feel left out of the process. Yes, you are correct in a sense that the wife may have to wait to hear the final outcome but when you trust your husband and his relationship with God, it's nbd.
" I get that it is natural for a husband and wife to assume different roles in a marriage--but I think a husband and wife should at least get to choose these roles for themselves. In your belief system, these roles seem to be decided for them by God. Again, this just doesn't strike me as very appealing. I would rather my husband and i decide these things for ourselves, based on our individual strengths."
Yay! We agree. The husband and the wife do get to choose these roles and yes it has been decided by God. God gives us choices and I have a strong desire to submit to my husband. I see that as an act of love and I am happy to do it. As far as the husband, there was no way that I could even marry a man that I didn't trust to fulfill the role of a Christian and God fearing husband which makes being submissive easier.
Some women like yourself have no desire to submit to your husband and it is your choice. I appreciate the tone of your post even if you don't agree with me.
TTC since September 2012
well, no reason two people can't disagree peacefully, right? I'm actually very glad to have had the chance to read/ discuss this thread. I DID learn a lot from it. So if the OP's goal was to explain her point of view so that others could understand it more clearly, in my case at least she accomplished that.
The last thing I'll say is this. In hindsight, I wouldn't say that I don't want to submit to my husband. I just want a relationship in which we both submit to each other.
Sure I can and do. Not many faiths believe in pro choice and in marriage of same sex couples. Why would I leave the Church I was raised in and go shopping for a new Church that I won't find? Just like picking a Political Party your aren't going to agree 100% with everything being said or think 100% of what they want you to. I'm sorry but I do not think its so black and white or that God is so unbending. The Church maybe but that is why I pick what I like out of the Church and ignore what I don't. Good for you and the rest of the ladies here who agree 100% with your faith, not everyone can or does with theirs. This is why we are human and see things differently.
In no way am I trying to be hateful about this. The Catholic Church will NEVER change its teachings. I don't understand why you, as someone who seems to disagree with a lot of the fundamental beliefs of the Church, would want to stay a part of it. Yes, you might find a Priest every now and then that will quietly, in his office, in his comfort zone, that will tell you that your disagreements with the Church's teachings is understandable for whatever reason. However the Church in general will never do such a thing.
And yet most Catholics are exactly this. Why do you think that people can't do this when obviously they do?
I never said the Catholic Church would change. I never said I walk around preaching that it should. I did say that I'm Catholic, which I most defiantly am, but I pick out what I like about my faith and ignore or leave what I do not. I have many friends who are also Catholic, they also feel like I do on these issues. If we all the currant practicing Catholics did not do this, the Church would lose most members. No all, but enough to really hurt.
Also, most of what I do not agree on my Church is also what most Churches have as a base of belief. So are you saying I should just not have a Church, faith or whatever? I believe in God, Jesus, Mary etc.
BTW, the Church has changed and will continue it is just really slow. When I went to my Godparent class I realized that the Church no longer believes that children or babies who die before being baptized no longer go to purgatory. See? They changed the view on what I always thought was horrible to believe.
The Bible says, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and then neither cold or hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."
I believe that verse to mean that you either believe 100% of what The Word says or God frowns upon you. One shouldn't pick and choose what works for them and disregard the rest.
TTC since September 2012
Lisa2008Boo,
I just want to commend you, as your sister in Christ, on your courage for putting this out there. HIGH FIVE!!! The fact that we are willing to stand up for what we believe should be proof enough that we are not weak or doormats, but in fact are very strong women who believe in putting our God first and our families second.
Just wanted to send an encouraging word out there in the midst of the many negative comments you have received on this post. You are not alone my sweet friend!
Fair enough.
You don't style your hair or wear makeup or jewelry, I'm assuming?
/dead
So you don't use birth control right? RIGHT?!?
HA! Very good point!! All I could think of was birth control!
Yeah I still can't reconcile those two ideas as working together in my head. I'm still stuck at the idea that the wife's opinion matters to an extent but final word comes from the husband.
But whatever. There are two people in my marriage, not 3. I guess it's just a totally different dynamic when we're making our own decisions and neither of us is praying to a deity to guide us. Like I said, if getting a religion degree taught me anything, it's that I want nothing to do with organized religion of any sort.
Those are Old Testament laws we no longer follow them anymore. Well the Jews do but that is because they don't believe Jesus was the messiah. For those of us who do believe he was the messiah we no longer follow these cultural laws of the OT. With his sacrifice on the cross came a new covenant with God and his people.
"A women who can kneel before the Lord can stand up to anything"
"A women who can kneel before the Lord can stand up to anything"
There is nothing in the Bible against birth control. Only against the types that could cause an abortion without the mother knowing. Birth control is a matter of personal conviction and what couples feels is best for them and their situation. It is a grey area as far as Christians are concerned.
"A women who can kneel before the Lord can stand up to anything"
Wrong.
"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;" 1 Timothy, chapter 2, verse 9
Bull ***.
Gen. 38:8 Then Judah said to Onan, 'Go in to your brother's wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.' 9 But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to see his brother's wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. 10 What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.
Or as it was explained in the marriage class, you do not waste or prohibit the conception of a child.