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Re: Video of Zimmerman after shooting shows no cuts, bruises
http://www.thebaroutback.com/about.html
I have never been there, but I'm from the area and heard that about this place all the time.
Bingo.
I live local to Sanford and on the news this morning, they also said that Trayvon did not have any wounds on his hands that would lead the medical examiner to believe he was punching someone. (Sorry if someone has already mentioned this.) The news also said something about the case possibly not having to go to the grand jury. Not sure what that means though.
I definitely think that Zimmerman was the aggressor and do not by his self defense claim at all.
I know that the DA at the time told the police not to arrest him because they didn't think they had enough to convict. Which is utter BS because they certainly have enough both to arrest and to go to a grand jury (the proverbial ham sandwich and all that).
I am extremely insulted that people assume that just because I haven't formed an opinion on the case I am just trying to excuse a "white guy" for his racism. There are no words.
But it's to be expected considering the inability of many on this board to understand that not everyone holding the same opinion has the same intent (either good or bad). It's been demonstrated time and time again that whenever an unpopular opinion is voiced that people are quick to group the person voicing the opinion with the most negative type of person that they know voices said opinion.
I'm over the court of public opinion. I saw how it played out in my town a few years ago.
I don't think that's entirely fair. My personal opinion on this case is that racism was absolutely why Zimmerman following Martin. I also think it's important to realize that Zimmerman may not be an overt, stereotypical racist. He may have lots of black friends, and he may not consciously judge people based on being black. That doesn't mean he didn't react differently because Martin was black, and that, I think, is a really, really important point. I think there's a sh!tload more people than are willing to admit who may even be vocally anti-racist and still do the cross-the-street-look-who's-coming thing, and not even consciously, they just may find certain people to be "more scary looking".
I think anyone who can't see that is a dumbass that doesn't understand that racism takes many forms. I don't think it's obvious that anyone who questions if the whole story is out yet must be waiting for a reason to blame the black guy, though, at least if they have the same amount of skepticism for any heavily reported shock value story.
I honestly didn't want to respond to your posts last night because I didn't want to seem like I was attacking you again.
However, when epphd wrote what she did, I sighed in relief thinking, at least someone said it, and honestly, I was glad that someone wasn't one of the more prominant black posters on this board.
I understand your connection with your case in your area. However, there are things that even from the very top surface of this case that SCREAM (yes caps) racism. This guys wasn't even arrested. That right there, is something. Trayvon was drug tested, and tagged as John Doe with cell phone. Zimmerman released without a drug test.
There is a reason there is outrage. ChillyMcFreeze stated it well below, that there is no one else doing something about this aside from the public because Zimmerman is still walking free.
So, it's frustrating. We don't all see eye to eye on things, and I definitely don't with you, despite my faith and how strong I feel it is. This however is black and white, both literally and figuratively. Zimmerman was assumed to be fully white, Trayvon was a kid who was black that GZ thought was on drugs, who looked suspicious (factual recordings from the 9-11 case)
You garnered enough information to make a formed decision about the Whooping Cough and what conclusion you'd come to without half as many facts. But this, you're waiting to see both sides and get all the facts. We won't. One side is dead, the other side is in hiding, yet miraculously holding on to his freedom.
Zuma Zoom
To tack onto SMo's point and to reiterate what HAB and I think TTT said earlier....
AW, the reason there is an assumption of "trying to believe the white man" or however epphd phrased it (I dont have the quote in front of me, sorry epphd!) when people talk about "wanting the full story" is because that overlooks the one very simple fact that started this.
Even if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and broke his nose. Even if Zimmerman did eventually pull the gun on him in self-defense. Even if the actual killing was self-defense....
Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Martin because he saw a young black male, wearing a hoodie, that he thought looked "suspicious" due to the color of his skin and what he was wearing. that's where the racism comes into play here. Even if Zimmerman is telling the truth about everything that happened once he actually encountered Trayvon - he called 911, got out of his car and started following the young black male dressed "suspiciously." That's why people are discussing racism here.
Then, the actions after the death of Trayvon Martin also indicate some level of systemic racism, like Smo pointed out - Martin was tagged as a John Doe (despite having a cell phone, so presumably they could have discovered his identity relatively easily), Martin was tested for drugs but Zimmerman was not, and so on. So even if you believe and it comes out that the actual killing itself was in self-defense to some action from Trayvon, the surrounding circumstances before and after certainly indicate that racism played a large role in the events of that night.
Same here. My brother's dad did the same, the mess was only on the carpet.
I also don't think Tray was on him. That's kind of my point. So many allegations are appearing false as we learn more. And GZ is looking worse and worse as a result.
Yeah, that's sort of what I mean. I think all this argument just allows people like AW to say, "well, maybe xyz happened, we don't really know, I'm not sure he's a murderer." And that's not the question. There's enough to arrest him. Period full stop. They didn't *investigate* the case. They didn't even ask they questions we're asking in this thread. That is firstly a huge miscarriage of justice, and secondarily, of the motivation for that wasn't racism (conscious or subconscious), I have no idea how it could happen.
I agree that Zimmerman is kind of unfairly receiving the brunt of this media beating when the Sanford PD should be getting just as much if not more of the questioning and criticism for how they handled (and didn't handle) everything after it happened.
I'm failing to see how these two issues are the same. I am a parent and have already decided what I would do in the case of a WC "outbreak" in my area. I don't need to know any other facts to know what I would do in that case.
A crime in which I was not a witness, am not privy to all of the facts, and do not know anyone involved is an entirely different can of worms. Of course I'm not going to declare an opinion on the case in the same way I would a random parenting decision that I have already thought out five years ago when I was pregnant with my first child. Apples and oranges.
Listen, I am aware that race plays a big role in this case. I think that the idea that a young black man being seen as a threat even when he isn't is something this country needs to explore. But we also need to remember that the fact that Zimmerman may have been a racist doesn't mean that Martin couldn't have also attacked him and that he was acting in a perceived state of self defense.
I have a gut feeling about this case, which is that Martin was doing nothing wrong and was walking home. I think that Zimmerman approached him or was following him and made him feel uncomfortable. I think a confrontation happened and I'm not sure who was the aggressor. I don't know how anyone can assume that they know this if they weren't there. I think that it was wrong of Zimmerman to approach Martin and I think that if we find out there wasn't an act of violence on Martin's part, that Zimmerman should be charged with murder. But until we know for sure what happened during that 911 tape where someone was screaming help, I don't know how ANYONE can say with certainty that they know what happened.
I don't know why wanting to know all of the details before I can say I am certain makes me racist (yes, that is what people are implying by saying I just want to assume the white guy is innocent). I find the people saying they want to be on the jury so they can get Zimmerman, who wish they could beat him to a bloody pulp, or that have presumed his guilt equally disturbing.
Someone can understand that racism is at play here, disagree with the racism, and still understand that a person can act in self defense despite the racism that is at play. I see two issues - the overall issue of racism and young black males that this case brings up and the actual facts and verdict of the case itself. You can have different opinions on these two issues. Having an opinion on the verdict (or holding out on one) doesn't automatically mean you have the opinion on the first issue that everyone thinks you have.
I think the bigger issue is that if the races were reversed, the media wouldn't have grabbed hold of the story and people across the country wouldn't even be aware of it enough to give anyone the benefit of the doubt.
But I would like to think that if I was presented with the same exact information and races were reversed, I would come to the same conclusion. Maybe you're all right and I am subconsciously racist though.
Bingo.
WELL. The issue really then (if we want to play "what would happen if the roles were reversed") is that this entire situation would be different, and I'm betting it would start with the arrest of the person who pulled the trigger. Had that happened here, the entire situation would be playing out very differently. There would be a sense of trust that "justice" would be carried out (ie the black man who killed the white man would be charged and presumably convicted.)
That sense of trust in the system comes with the whole idea of white privilege as we've been discussing it here recently.
Seriously? You think if a black guy stalked a white kid through a neighborhood and shot him, and claimed self defense, and wasn't arrested, and wasn't drug tested, and the police just took his story at face value without doing much investigation . . . you don't think you'd hear about it from the media?
Article: 5 Key Unanswered Questions in the TM case
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/28/454206/trayvon-martin-5-unanswered-questions/
And I can't believe it's already been more than a month since this happened. Still seems like last night.
If the races were reversed the black man who shot the un-armed white kid would have been arrested faster than a cat licks it's a$$
I really have to finish getting ready for work, but I'm in it already.
The whooping cough bit was to say that you made a decision on that you'd invite these kids despite the risk. Without having full details, you made an decision as if you were in the person's shoes.
As to the other part of your response. No one is saying that they have all of the facts. We're saying that one - Sanford Police dropped the ball big time, their motives and information based on the crime scene, their changing stories, reluctance to release 911 tapes, all of that, oh and the minor bit about not arresting and holding GZ all is a lot to denote racism at play here.
Two - GZ's motives initially can be also viewed as racism for the reasons we've gone over in numerous threads.
You can have different opinions on these two issues. Having an opinion on the verdict (or holding out on one) doesn't automatically mean you have the opinion on the first issue that everyone thinks you have.
There won't be a jury until this guy is arrested and charged. It still hasn't happened yet.
Again, the full details of the case, no one will ever know completely but Zimmerman and God. Though, there is mounting evidence that can contradict the stories that Zimmerman's lawyer, and the Sanford Police are giving.
I also think that there are people on this board who can fully relate to the treatment that Trayvon has received by the police and by his killer. I know that isn't something that many people, including you can grasp as well as minorities on this board. It's not someting I'd wish on you or anyone. Empathy comes into play, like TTT was saying having the roles being reversed. To one of Dylanite's first points, if Trayvon Martin was a white female, and GZ was a black male. I can't even imagine.
When GZ is arrested, and formally charged and taken to trial, I can understand where you're coming from. To see the evidence, to have a jury, judge, court doing what our country should do for justice. We haven't even got to the damn Miranda rights yet.
Zuma Zoom
I think this is valid. I can't relate. The closest I can come is some discrimination I have received when people have assumed I am Muslim based on the way I was dressed. I can't imagine having to deal with racism every day.
Perhaps my naivete is showing again.
I apologize to anyone that I have offended with my opinions in this thread. I hope you can see that my intentions are good.
I think that what I have come out of this post with, after learning a little more about the case, is that I should be more outraged with the police department for not doing their job properly. I hope that if anything, not only will this situation cause us as a nation to look into the subconscious biases we have about race, but also hold police departments more accountable for the work they do. Hopefully if this happens Trayvon didn't die in vain.
It's not just you.
I've seen a guy have his head repeatedly slammed into the sidewalk during a fist fight. That guy was hauled off in an ambulance. His face was tore up and he wasn't back in school for weeks.
To expand upon this, how many times have we seen black men later cleared of charges they were convicted of because police charged them in haste and not only was the benefit of the doubt was not given but they were presumed guilty all along when it wasnt even flucking them? It demonstates racial bias in our police forces AND court system. So the mention of the media is just distracting and irrelevant from true problems.
Careful, Mer. I have a cat (<----) who is really fat and pretty slow about licking his ass.
But yes, that's kind of the point. If the races were reversed, the black guy would have been arrested and nobody outside of the local area would know about it because it would be consider a run-of-the-mill local crime story. Most shootings don't make national news. There's a reason this one has.
And I'll ditto those who have offered up their anecdotes re: hitting their heads on the concrete. I once got drunk and tripped on a curb (SHUT UP!), and I was bleeding from two spots on my face. I had visible marks on my face for a week after that.
The idea that this whole case isn't one giant display of racism would be laughable if it weren't so damn depressing.
Exactly. the reason we are talking about this in the court of public opinion was because the "verdict" after the shooting happened was that the guy need not ever be tried in a real court. We are talking about that "verdict" in much the same way we analyzed Casey Anthony's verdict.
Had the police arrested him and had Stand Your Ground not meant immunity from prosecution, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. I doubt this story would have even made national news.
nope, you've articulated this perfectly. i completely agree.
Not disagreeing with your general sentiment, but he didn't outweigh him by terribly much it appears. Certainly way less than a hundred pounds. I can see Tray beating this guy down with their sizes.
To me it really boils down to two questions:
Why did Zimmerman find Martin worthy of suspicion? (societal question)
Why hasn't Zimmerman been charged with a crime (legal question with societal underpinnings)