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Re: Probably flammable, but I want to ask anyways
I'm not sure where I demanded it be illegal. It's a free country and people are free to say what they want, as you said, and suffer the consequences of using those words.
I never said you don't have the right to say it. I guess I was just hoping that in the future, in an age of political correctness, that people would have the respect NOT to do it.
I don't think that is what she is saying. I took it as if people learned it is offensive eventually people will stop using these words in the same manner that any one of the hateful terms that we once used in everyday conversation but would now would earn you a ration of crap from society.
I can't see the analogous usage. Yes, I'd be offended if someone insulted my mother, but that would be akin to someone saying something insulting about God, not just "saying the name in vain". If my mother's name was Betsy, for example, I would not be offended by offhand use..."Heaven's to Betsy!".
I think there's also the element of the swearer taking something sacred and making light of it by using it frivolously.
Or maybe it has something to do with the occasion it's used and the associations? If someone says "Jesus Christ" when they hit their thumb with a hammer, does that mean they're blaming him, calling him out for allowing it to happen? I don't know, but it does seem to be said in anger.
Yeah. Apples and oranges.
People can say all sorts of things that offend me ABOUT my faith. Reeve does it all the time (look at the hateful Christian thread, page 5 for a good example). They are free to do that because they are expressing their opinion. That's different to me than using a knowingly offensive expression that could easily be substituted with something else and get the same meaning across.
Maybe I say that I feel that I am supposed to be submissive to my husband and you find that offensive. I'm sorry that you do, but it's an opinion of mine. If I said that I should be my husband's b-word and you found the use of the b-word offensive, I would refrain from using it and find a different way to express my opinion.
There's the difference to me.
Very, very bad example. Buddha is not a deity, nor is there an obligation in Buddhism to respect him. Most Buddhists do, but it's a respect that's earned, not a requirement of the faith.
It hurts my ears to hear it. That's all. It's probably how some of you feel when you hear a man say that a woman is a c-word. Some of you don't care because the word doesn't bother you. Others find the word extremely offensive.
Listen, I'm not asking anyone to stop using the word if they don't want to. I was honestly curious is you guys see it as the same as the other words and was hoping that maybe out of respect people would think twice about it in the future.
As someone who routinely does this on this forum, I''d like to say I am sorry for being thoughtless. I know that I wouldn't say such things in person in front of people I know to be devout (such as my father in law). To address your point, I think the reason that people don't treat this as they do "retard" and "gay" is exactly why you stated--the former refers to a deity, the others refer to actual humans. However, since I "internet know you", I'll try to be more cognizant of my language.
well, i'm agnostic but for a long time i was a serious, devout catholic and did not find it "offensive" when other people used the lord's name in vain.
i find lots of things abrasive and i may not like a person as much who expressed themselves abrasively, but my offense is mine to deal with. you didn't just say you're offended by "effing jesus" you're offended by "jesus christ" and you want to wipe it from the vernacular entirely. the point of this post, as i see it, was not to express offense, but to sway people, some of whom do not share your beliefs, to adopt your preferred mode of expression.
it seems to me, almost, that you're asking for other people to observe your religious practice, to a certain extent. that's just not something i see as a prerequisite to respect for another's religious views. i appreciate your articulate and calm expression of your views, i don't really use "jesus" in the way you find offensive all that often (i can't recall a time recently), and intend no offense (usually) here or irl in most of what i do (though i know i fail daily). but i think you and i, at least, are going to be at an impasse on this point.
This is what I teach my children. That in God's eyes, all sin is equal. It's what the Bible says (to me).
And I can't believe it's been this long since the last "your children are going to go crazy in college" comment. My children are going to learn that everyone is a sinner, including me. I sin all the time. In fact, I can think of a handful since just waking up this morning. My children are made aware of my sin all the time. When I raise my voice to them in anger I will often pull them aside after reflection and ask for their forgiveness. I want them to know that I was wrong and that I should ask for forgiveness and that it works the same way with God. When they sin, they need to go to Him for forgiveness and His Grace is sufficient to wipe it away. They are going to stumble just like we all do. I'm not putting them in some bubble where I'm expecting them never to mess up - it's in the mess ups that we grow and learn.
But, yeah, they probably will end up doing quite a but of sinning in college, just like the kids without faith do. I call that human nature, not anything that I did wrong to cause it.
C'mon* people, she's asking out of curiosity, not laying down a law. No one said you have to agree with her beliefs, why the need to mock them?
AW has a great track record of examining her positions and changing them in response to an argument, but I hardly think she's going to become an athiest because you don't agree with her interpretation of the commandments.
*See what I did there? I didn't use the Lord's name in vain. Plus one for Pescalita. Thanks AW, for making me more consious of this on Good Friday.
I am a Protestant Christian.
If someone said "Oh my Denise" I'd probably bust out laughing. So no, I wouldn't find it offensive at all.
You weren't asking me, but I will answer. No, I wouldn't. I think that's like getting upset at "yo momma" jokes or if someone says they slept with my mom last night. I will think they are idiots, full of ish and move on. I never understood why this upset people and moved them to scream or fight. In fact, if someone said G effin T I'd be almost proud they knew my mom's name and thought it was important enough to swear using. I mean, ther'es a reason J effin C is used more than John effing Smith or Jane effin Doe!
Cville said it much more eloquently, but the fact is, there's just no way someone like you is ever going to agree with someone like me.
I wouldn't want my kids coming to hang out in your home and being taught that murder and lying are equal. Frankly, it frightens me that any children are being taught that.
Look, the bolded is really condescending of you.
As for whether or not the term is offensive, opinion varies greatly across the board, even among self-professed Christians. I'm Catholic, and I'm not immune to a really satisfying blaspheme.
I don't put taking the Lord's name in vain in the same category as "gay" or "retarded"; I put it in the same category as other oaths people use that some people may find offensive and some may not. Just as I don't openly swear around people I don't know, or people I've just met, I try not to use blasphemous terms around them, either. But on a message board, for some reason I have no such boundary, because I assume if someone knows that sort of thing goes on, and they are truly offended by it, they have the option of blocking me or simply leaving.
Updated September 2012.
I don't see very many people mocking her beliefs here. Maybe being irritated that she wants her beliefs to reflect the way we speak, but I can understand that irritation.
I'm sorry if I came across this way. My intention isn't for you to observe my religious beliefs, but to respect them.
It's the same to me as maybe refraining from eating or cooking pork in front of a Jew or Muslim. You aren't not eating the pork because you are observing their religious practices. You're doing it because you respect them as a person enough not to do something offensive to them.
FWIW, I'm pretty sure I've never sworn on a deity here, in large part because I don't see the point of it when it does offend some people.
Part of why I asked, though, is people are a lot more open to not being offensive if they understand how what they are doing is offensive. "I don't like to hear it" isn't a good reason, *definitely* not a reason comparable to why someone wouldn't like like "retarded" or "c*nt" used as an insult, especially if there is no reason within your faith as to why you don't like to hear it. (You're playing a offends-religious-people card without explaining if or how, in the religion itself, it's offensive). I don't like the sound of the word "lozenge", but I'm not going to ask people not to use it, and right now without some reason within your religion for it being offensive it doesn't seem to have much more validity than "it rubs me the wrong way".
ETA: Or what cville said...they you are asking people to observe one of your religious tenets.
Where does the line between respect and free speech lie? Aren't you, if you find the language used so offensive and hurtful, free to leave?
ETA: To put it another way. If a Jewish or Muslim person comes to my home, no, I won't be cooking a pork roast. But if I'm at a public park, and I want to buy a hot dog, I will; because it's a public place and someone offended by my purchase of a pork product has the option of not patronizing that park.
Updated September 2012.
"This is what I teach my children. That in God's eyes, all sin is equal. It's what the Bible says (to me)."
I really, honestly, do not get this viewpoint at all. I can't even articulate what I want to say about this because I'm so
I would not want to believe in a god that thinks that murder and telling a small fib are the same thing.
This is silly. For the vast majority, the offense is in asking THEM to eat the pork, not in cooking or eating it in front of them. Just like for the vast majority of vegetarians, it's not offensive if YOU eat meat, just don't ask them to do it.
But I don't think it could get the same meaning across exactly because of your offense. If you really want to swear, the point is to say something extreme! The other, non-offensive words would sound like a joke to people nowadays, like saying "gee-willy!" and not get across how annoyed/upset you are.
I think more than people moving on with JFC out of political correctness, they will just find something that is more offensive as people get used to this. It was hit on precisely because it was something that still caused people to take notice when plain old *** would no longer work.
Also, I think that your use of political correctness and equating retarded or gay with this is showing that you don't get the difference. Using retarded and gay is generally used (I'm being generous here and taking into account 80 year olds born into another era) with a hateful purpose against another person who is here on earth and can do nothing to change it.
I may be offending you by the use of JFC, but 1) I'm not talking about you directly, 2) your religious beliefs are a choice, and 3) I think God, being omnipotent and all, can take care of himself and has better things to do and isn't 1/3 as upset as you are, so really, why do you feel the need to be upset on his behalf?
i find this sort of hilarious because last night my parents and i went out to bbq with my raised-jewish-now-a-buddhist husband and they both ate pulled pork in front of him. and he's not once asked me to kneel at his alter and mediate. and in fact lets my daughter sit on it and rock the buddha statute like a baby doll.
would i interrupt him during mediation? no. would i buy him a sproingy dashboard buddha for his car? yes.
what i was trying to say, which either i can't get across well or you and i aren't going to see eye to eye on because of our general belief-gulf impasse, is that your posts seem tobe conflating respect and observation.
I'm sorry, I've spent a lot of time studying the English language and contemplating the meaning of all words and how they apply to my own expressions and I've come to adopt the deeply held belief that there is no acceptable substitution for the phrase "Jesus f*cking Christ!" I'm sure as a person with your own deeply held beliefs that you will understand and respect my opinion on this.
Who "me?"