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Re: 'God Prefers Kind Atheists Over Hateful Christians'
Nods head. This is why I have a problem with churches like Westboro or any church that decides to demonize anyone who doesn't believe or do what they think they should.
De lurking
It really eems like people aroud here get waaaay more worked up about this God/Gay issue than people IRL. I am Christian and talk in passsing with my neighbors (a gay couple who have been together forever)..about church and they could give a rats ass. In fact when I put the kids in Catholic School they both thought it was a great idea because it is a good school. Never batted an eyelash at it. They have sought out (tolerant) churches themselves. The Christians I know never even talk about the issue. Maybe it's because I live in a very liberal area but around these parts there are plenty of Christians who have very comfortable and close friendships with people that are gay. Love your neighbor should trump all this beeswax! The crazies are always going to be loud and get all of the attention but there are many people who look at the whole person and don't dial it down to gay or straight or whatever.
edited to add that I am not trying to take away from the fact that real issues like marriage equality exist and that needs to be addressed because it does not acknowledge the separation of church and state.
This underlined, bolded line makes me
It's just false.
Your interpretation is wrong. I know what Christians are led to believe and I'm perfectly fine if the majority of practicing Christians feel that the laws of the Torah have no application to them. However those laws were NOT established because of the reasons you mention. They never were.
They were given to the Israelites because God commands holiness. They were behaviors required of Israelites in order for them (and current observant Jews) to maintain their separates from other clans, tribes, religious groups of the day.
They have nothing to do with protecting people because of public health issues.
Further more they are still extremely important to a lot of Jews and to make them no more than public health warnings is insulting. That implies that with access to refrigeration, modern food handling practices, modern sanitation, clean water, etc. that observant Jews are silly to keep practicing these laws.
We practice them because they create holiness for us and they are important to us. Not because we want to avoid salmonella poisoning.
Mostly ambivalent, but I appreciate the sentiment that these are people who are being kind to everyone. I always like that!
I thought this is what most Reformed Jews believe?
Agreed! My parents grew up Catholic, but didn't want to baptize me. Of course the Grand parents threw a fit. So, my Mom did her research, and had me dedicated at a Unitarian church. My Mom chose to not have God mentioned in the service, and all the religious family members didn't notice. I just happened to turn out as an Atheist, but would still go to a UU church for the above mentioned.
I'm making absolutely no declaration on what Jews believe or should believe about the Torah either then or now.
I said to me. I made it abundantly clear that this is how I interpret them based on what's in the New Testament and how I feel God is speaking to me personally.
I also believe Jesus is the Messiah. Does that make you equally irate? Do you also believe I find Jews who don't believe that to be silly?
Because I absolutely don't.
Click me, click me!
For most of the Reform movement's existence, Reform Jews did reject keeping Kosher, but not necessarily for those reasons. I remember a class series I took on this a couple of years back, but I can't remember the exact discussion. The rabbi who taught that class is a close friend of mine and is coming in town today to spend Passover with us, so I can certainly ask him if you're interested.
In the meantime, the Central Conference on American Rabbis (the governing body of all Reform rabbis in the U.S.) published a responsa on Reform Judaism's position on kashrut: http://data.ccarnet.org/cgi-bin/respdisp.pl?file=49&year=arr
This is what you said:
"Many of the prohibitions are unnecessary now because of our access to clean water, refrigeration, etc as well as a difference in soil and an expanded knowledge of the ways the world works as it pertains to medicine, science, and biology."
This is 100% wrong because those laws were never established as public health precautions in the first place. They are made unnecessary to Christians because of the cruxifiction. That's fine. I have no problem with that. But don't promote a false interpretation.
It in no way makes me angry that you are a believer. I certainly hope you believe that Jesus is the Messiah. It would make being a Methodist very difficult if you didn't. You can think I'm silly for not believing that he's the Messiah, even though I no you don't think I'm silly. That's a matter of faith.
Your interpretation is the result of being educated wrongly on this subject.
Edit - to give credit where credit is due.
Not sure I'm a resident, but I'm definitely an atheist.
I like it. I think it's a step in the right direction when the religious are actively pulling back from language that demonizes atheists. I don't personally take it as a slap at atheists (ha ha, you're wrong, but god will take pity on you in the end if you're a nice person), I take it as a slap at the congregants who count themselves superior because of their faith. I think it's doing from the religious side what Greg Epstein is trying to do from the secular side of the fence with the Humanist Community Project -- find common ground and foster respect despite the differences.
Maybe that's just wishful thinking.
Lol, that's how my dad explained that stuff in the new testament to me, HS, when I read the bible on my own as a child.
"Dad, why couldn't they eat pigs?'
"Because they couldn't clean it properly so they were likely to all catch trich and die. Because they were a persecuted people on the brink of being wiped out, a lot of people dying from eating pork was bad, ergo, just stop eating pork."
He also said a lot of the stuff about unclean vs. clean and sacrifices were ways of bringing new people into the Christian fold from their pagan roots, because these were concepts and rules that were familiar to them and thus helped Christianity easier to accept and adjust to.
Dude, to reply to this any further would be an unChristian thing to do so I'll just say that you have no right or business trying to tell me what you think I ought to believe. If you'd read my other posts, you would have seen me say quite clearly that I don't believe the crucifixion made any laws unnecessary.
And not to be contrary, but the first place I heard about that interpretation of why those laws were given and why those laws are unnecessary was from the Reform rabbi whose family I worked for as a nanny for a year. It simply never occured to me before then to think about why one might not practice those laws today.
Click me, click me!
That's what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a little odd for her to lecture me on what I should believe when there are obviously different schools of thought even among her faith.
I should also mention that the rabbi's wife kept kosher because she didn't agree.
Click me, click me!
I agree with volenti's interpretation of the sign.
All this thread proves is that god is awful. He either cant make himself clear, so he is stupid and not worth worshipping, or he deliberately made all his works difficult to understand, causing centuries of hatred and violence.
And we cant even say "it is man that wrote the book so it is mans fault" because all that means is that god is even more inept than previously stated.
Either way, he is useless
Do you believe one core reason people are religious, and/or believe in god, is due to a certain weakness? A dread they cannot otherwise deal with in thinking we actually are NOT here for a particular purpose?
Pall it means is man is inept and has free will to interpret the world around them, including him, quite differently. Kind of like any ideology, IMO.
All this proves to me is that you have no idea what you are taking about.
Well, I suppose one has to appreciate your candor. And I could respond to your last statement with something incredibly trite, no matter how true, but I'll refrain.
This is why I believe in good works. The god I believe in wants people to be kind. He is not full of himself. He does not punish people for not believing in him. That, IMO, it insanely arogant and not something "my" god would do.
Good works all the way. Good people go to heaven. End of story.
I wondered why this thread was still going, then I came in and saw everyone quoting Reeve. :::::gigglesnort:::::
Piggy backing off whay volenti said, I don't believe that religious faith and good deeds are mutually exclusive. The former is not required for the latter
I don't believe the former is required for the latter, either.
So, if I do good works, but I don't have faith, am I square with God?
What if I do good works, but I call it a Mitzvah?
...this is the thing that gets me, that you could be good and do good seven days a week, and there are those who believe that it doesn't matter in the eyes of god, that what matters is how you spend your Sunday mornings.
I am the 99%.
Yep, this is my biggest issue with most fundamentalists. Its what made me return to catholicism after I spent years trying to find another faith. Good works was the crux of the issue. I believed in God. I believed in Jesus. But I did not believe in an arrogant god and I believed his main purpose was for us to be good people.
**of course Catholicism has its flaws. Its just for me, the above were the most important.
I don't think any Christians truly believe what happens on Sunday morning has anything to do with salvation. Attending church isn't a requirement for belief in Christ (but is often a sign of faith, because those filled with the Holy Spirit generally enjoy public worship). In fact, many people probably attend church on Sunday (or whatever day of the week they choose to observe the Sabbath) morning out of habit or requirement more than anything, without any faith behind their actions (that lukewarm we talked about in the thread earlier).
I do think that requires us to do good. As I said before, faith without action is dead. God expects His people to do His will. Those that don't are seen as unrighteous in His eyes according to the Bible.
We have two issues here - faith in Christ and being good. Both are important to God. Both are an essential part of a relationship with Him. To get back to the OP, as 2V mentioned earlier in this thread - God views lack of faith and hateful behavior the same. Neither of these things are acceptable if you are one of His children.
FYI, while I agree with you that some people attend church out of habit, that doesn't negate the fact that Catholicism requires attendance at Sunday Mass and holy day observations. It's one of the Precepts, minimum requirements to be in good standing as a Catholic, so it's absolutely part of the deal for salvation.
Catholics aren't Christian. Ywia
See, this is the problem.
Let's assume that those who have faith and are good are all fine.
Let's also assume that those who have no faith and are awful are... well, awful.
My question is about those in the middle - - which, I believe, the vast majority of people are.
...because it seems to me from what you're saying that you can be an amazingly good person, but in the end be consigned to awfulness only because you didn't have faith.
And how is a lack of faith possibly = "hateful behavior". If I lack faith, that's between me and God, and I'd hope that he/she/it is bigger than that. Being hateful means being hateful to God's children, which I would think would be a bigger problem.
IME, there are a lot of people (who I know personally, many who I'm also related to
) who genuinely believe that faith is more important than doing good... that their faith will save them first and foremost over the faith-less, full stop.
I am the 99%.