Possibly Flameful: I think the Duggars are selfish, irresponsible jackasses

suzymarie

Pescalita:

gypsygirl15:

well, shyt. this thread is a hot mess. blaming them for this is not only ridiculous, it's illogical and without any medical evidence.

but even if you choose to have such an assbackwards take on reason -- and clearly you have -- do you not have a shred of compassion? 

This precisely. Some people need to go back to 7th grade math and re-learn independant probabilities. I thought this was a board that valued sources. If anyone has a medical study showing increased risk with high # of pregnancies, I'd be happy to see it.

I am off looking for references right now, but this is a common fact among birth professionals.  There are a lot of risks associated with multiple pgs (called grand multiparas).  The one I can think of off the top of my head is postpartum hemorrage.

FallinAgain

mysticporter:

KateAggie:

Their basic belief (as I understand it) is that it is up to God to decide when to create life.  Their free will steps in in the form of choosing whether or not to have sex. How that translates into it being hypocritical for them to have medical care (such as a necessary c-section) stumps me.

I believe God blessed me with my child, so does that mean I should not provide medical care for my child because God will decide?  No.  He put her in my care, and it is my responsibility to provide for her in every sense of the word.

The Duggars claim (on their website) :

We weren?t sure if Michelle could have any more children after the miscarriage, but we were sure we were going to stop using the pill. In fact we agreed we would stop using any form of birth control and let God decide how many children we would have. Just a couple of months later, Michelle became pregnant with twins. A double blessing!

That's where the hypocrisy comes in.  They are not letting God decide how many children they have.  They are deciding exactly where God's influence should end (conception) and where medical intervention should begin (apparently the second after).  I have no problems with medical intervention, and I completely agree with you that a belief in God does not, and should not, preclude medical intervention.  The Duggar's, however, have stated that they, apparently, do...at least in some cases...when it suits their needs.  I'm not saying they shouldn't have accepted medical intervention.  I'm saying that when it became obvious that God decided they could only have a child with medical intervention, their own beliefs (that it was up to Him) should have mandated they stop trying for more. 

Can you point to anything that says they do not believe in medical intervention?  They are ATIA not Christian Scientist.  This quote just says that they made a decision to stop using birth control and put having a child in God's hands, not that they think BC is wrong or against God.  They likely don't believe that or they would not have been on it in the first place.  You can choose to let your God or nature take its course without eschewing belief in all medical intervention. 

MarynJoe

I had no idea that our great grandparents and long gone relatives were so hateful and cruel as to have multiple kids knowing they might die, knowing they would work on the farm, and knowing they'd have to help raise each other. 

Stormie75

I feel awful that the baby is premature.  If she had 50 babies that's her choice and we shouldn't judge her.  Isn't that what is always preached on this board?  Tolerance?

suzymarie

Birth spacing info:

From the Utah dept. of health (no references):

Improvement in Health of Newborn
When births are spaced 21/2 years to 3 years apart there is less risk of infant and child death. There is also lower risk of the baby being underweight.

Improvement in Health of Mother
Short intervals between births can also be bad for mother?s health. There is a greater risk of bleeding in pregnancy, premature rupture of the bag of waters and increased risk of maternal death. A time interval of six months or more after finishing breastfeeding is also recommended before becoming pregnant again for the mother to be able to rebuild her nutritional stores.

From John Hopkins School of Public Health:  

New Evidence

A 2002 study by researchers at the Demographic and Health Surveys (DHS) program finds that children born 3 years or more after a previous birth are healthier at birth and more likely to survive at all stages of infancy and childhood through age five. The study uses DHS data from 18 countries in four regions and assesses outcomes of more than 430,000 pregnancies.

Among the findings: Compared with children born less than 2 years after a previous birth, children born 3 to 4 years after a previous birth are:

• 1.5 times more likely to survive the first week of life;
• 2.2 times more likely to survive the first 28 days of life;
• 2.3 times more likely to survive the first year of life; and
• 2.4 times more likely to survive to age five.

Mothers Benefit, Too

A 2000 study by the Latin American Center for Perinatology and Human Development reinforces the DHS findings about children, using data for over 450,000 women. It also provides some of the best evidence yet that spacing births further apart improves mothers? health. Among the findings: Compared with women who give birth at 9- to 14-month intervals, women who have their babies at 27- to 32-month birth intervals are:

• 1.3 times more likely to avoid anemia;
• 1.7 times more likely to avoid third-trimester bleeding; and
• 2.5 times more likely to survive childbirth.

While the biological and behavioral mechanisms that make shorter birth intervals riskier for infants and mothers are little understood, researchers suggest such factors as maternal depletion syndrome, premature delivery, milk diminution, and sibling rivalry. For instance, studies suggest that shorter birth intervals may not allow mothers enough time to restore nutritional reserves that provide for adequate fetal nutrition and growth. Fetal growth retardation and premature delivery can result in low birth weight and greater risk of death.

Breastfeeding practices. Whether women breastfeed at all, how frequently, and how long influence their birth spacing practices (54, 72, 119, 208, 209). In nearly all developing countries nearly all women breastfeed their newborn children (65, 93). Breastfeeding differs among cultures both in duration and frequency, however (93, 206). Among developing regions the duration of breastfeeding ranges from an average of 14 months in Latin America and the Caribbean to 21 months in sub-Saharan Africa (65).

Breastfeeding practices help determine how long women will remain amenorrheic?without menses and thus less likely to get pregnant?after giving birth (207). Women who fully or nearly fully breastfeed their infants remain amenorrheic longer (92). Among 55 countries with DHS data, women in sub-Saharan Africa have the longest median duration of postpartum amenorrhea, ranging from about 7 months in Comoros to 17 months in Rwanda. Women in the Near East and North Africa have the shortest duration, from 3 months in Turkey to 6 months in Yemen. Having more children and being poorly nourished also lengthen amenorrhea (207). 

To see the references above:  http://info.k4health.org/pr/l13/l13bib.shtml

From a JAMA abstract (I can't get the full text):

Data Synthesis  A random-effects model and meta-regressionanalyses were used to pool data from individual studies. Comparedwith interpregnancy intervals of 18 to 23 months, interpregnancyintervals shorter than 6 months were associated with increasedrisks of preterm birth, low birth weight, and small for gestationalage (pooled adjusted odds ratios [95% confidence intervals]:1.40 [1.24-1.58], 1.61 [1.39-1.86], and 1.26 [1.18-1.33], respectively).Intervals of 6 to 17 months and longer than 59 months were alsoassociated with a significantly greater risk for the 3 adverseperinatal outcomes.

Conclusions  Interpregnancy intervals shorter than 18 monthsand longer than 59 months are significantly associated withincreased risk of adverse perinatal outcomes. These data suggestthat spacing pregnancies appropriately could help prevent suchadverse perinatal outcomes.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/295/15/1809

m_willis22

i think one of the biggest issues with this post is that people are not educated on different lifestyles. from what i have seen on the show they are a very loving family. i see people with 1 or 2 children that do not spend the amount of time or show the amount of love that the duggars show to all of their children.

to say that she caused a premature baby is just crazy and hurtful to people who have been in the situation.

IrishBrideND

MarynJoe:

I had no idea that our great grandparents and long gone relatives were so hateful and cruel as to have multiple kids knowing they might die, knowing they would work on the farm, and knowing they'd have to help raise each other. 

 

The world has changed a bit, you realize. Right?

 

You can't compare things across generations without taking their generation into context.

MarynJoe

Oh yeah, I also need to inform my friend that she was being irresponsible by having her first child at 42.  She should have gone out and gotten herself pregnant before then, out of wedlock as a teen. 

I think I should also call my mom and yell at her and call her selfish for having me 10 1/2 months after my sister.  And be mad about her having my brother.  We had to share and help each other and do chores around the house.  That wasn't fair.

groovingirl

Pescalita:

groovingirl:

MarynJoe:

So we should call women selfish, irresponsible jackasses if they: have a premie and try to keep it alive, never get over having a miscarriage, have many children, encourage their kids to take care of each other and share, have kids over the age of 40.....what else am I missing?  Wow.

And, to the poster who said that women weren't designed to carry 19 babies, think again.  A few hundred years ago, women regularly had over 10 children. They often continued having children until menopause.  The only difference between then and now is that many of the children didn't live to the age of 18 due to accidents, illness, etc. 

That's really not what she said.  Y'all need to read her post again, and then read my post, which she said is what she was really trying to say.  Agree or disagree with that, not the emotionally charged miscarriage issues.

Women hundreds of years ago (okay even just barely a hundred years ago) had 10+ kids because they needed help on the farm, not just because of their religious beliefs.  And women did not, IIRC, have very long lifespans because of it (and lack of adequate medical care).

All those things were said directly or implied in this thread, not just by SB. Who cares what their reasoning is; does farm work have some kind of special approval that religious beliefs do not? Yeah, every pregnancy is a risk to the mother, so is Michelle a martyr for risking herself every time, or is she putting her other children in danger? They're 19 people out of 6 billion. Quiverful might be a movement, but it's a very limited one. Quit judging other people and find a constructive way to make a difference if you care that much.

Farm work to survive vs. religious beliefs that God is in control of my uterus - yes I think the former makes more sense than the latter.  We all judge, and I don't plan on stopping any time soon.  And if I decide not to have children, I guess the lack of my kids and my descendants will offset her ever-expanding family tree which, if they all go off and have tons of kids and they begat and they begat, will greatly contribute to global warming and the destruction of the Earth.  Let's keep the hyperbole coming! 

IrishBrideND

MarynJoe:

Oh yeah, I also need to inform my friend that she was being irresponsible by having her first child at 42.  She should have gone out and gotten herself pregnant before then, out of wedlock as a teen. 

I think I should also call my mom and yell at her and call her selfish for having me 10 1/2 months after my sister.  And be mad about her having my brother.  We had to share and help each other and do chores around the house.  That wasn't fair.

 

ok wow. You are COMPLETELY missing the point of what most people are saying here.

MarynJoe

IrishBrideND:

MarynJoe:

I had no idea that our great grandparents and long gone relatives were so hateful and cruel as to have multiple kids knowing they might die, knowing they would work on the farm, and knowing they'd have to help raise each other. 

 

The world has changed a bit, you realize. Right?

 

You can't compare things across generations without taking their generation into context.

And you can't compare things across cultures/religious beliefs without taking their culture/religious belief into context.

IrishBrideND

MarynJoe:

IrishBrideND:

MarynJoe:

I had no idea that our great grandparents and long gone relatives were so hateful and cruel as to have multiple kids knowing they might die, knowing they would work on the farm, and knowing they'd have to help raise each other. 

 

The world has changed a bit, you realize. Right?

 

You can't compare things across generations without taking their generation into context.

And you can't compare things across cultures/religious beliefs without taking their culture/religious belief into context.

 

Yes, I agree. I do take their religion into consideration.

Pescalita

suzymarie:

Pescalita:

gypsygirl15:

well, shyt. this thread is a hot mess. blaming them for this is not only ridiculous, it's illogical and without any medical evidence.

but even if you choose to have such an assbackwards take on reason -- and clearly you have -- do you not have a shred of compassion? 

This precisely. Some people need to go back to 7th grade math and re-learn independant probabilities. I thought this was a board that valued sources. If anyone has a medical study showing increased risk with high # of pregnancies, I'd be happy to see it.

I am off looking for references right now, but this is a common fact among birth professionals.  There are a lot of risks associated with multiple pgs (called grand multiparas).  The one I can think of off the top of my head is postpartum hemorrage.

And we have no evidence of why this baby was born premature, but circumstances point towards gallstones, not any placental/cervical/uterine incompetance. And gallstones can happen during any pregnancy as far as I know.

MeredithE

m_willis22:

i think one of the biggest issues with this post is that people are not educated on different lifestyles. from what i have seen on the show they are a very loving family. i see people with 1 or 2 children that do not spend the amount of time or show the amount of love that the duggars show to all of their children.

to say that she caused a premature baby is just crazy and hurtful to people who have been in the situation.

THANKYOU!!!! The Duggars mean well. 

mysticporter

FallinAgain:

Can you point to anything that says they do not believe in medical intervention?  They are ATIA not Christian Scientist.  This quote just says that they made a decision to stop using birth control and put having a child in God's hands, not that they think BC is wrong or against God.  They likely don't believe that or they would not have been on it in the first place.  You can choose to let your God or nature take its course without eschewing belief in all medical intervention. 

I would not consider it hypocritical if they said "conception is God's will", or "God wants us to have absolutely as many children as we can".  But, they don't...they've got to claim that they "put having a child in God's hands", when in fact, they don't (if you're OK with God acting through the hands of man, what's the problem with BC?  It's picking and choosing where God's direct intervention ends and free will begins to justify your own choices).  It's one thing that I dislike:  they've got to ramp up the pious factor and make a sh!t claim that is far beyond what they actually have demonstrated they believe in by their actions.

IrishBrideND

MeredithE:

m_willis22:

i think one of the biggest issues with this post is that people are not educated on different lifestyles. from what i have seen on the show they are a very loving family. i see people with 1 or 2 children that do not spend the amount of time or show the amount of love that the duggars show to all of their children.

to say that she caused a premature baby is just crazy and hurtful to people who have been in the situation.

THANKYOU!!!! The Duggars mean well. 

 

I agree that they mean well.

I think hs hit the nail on the head as to why they upset me. I hate that the girls seem to repressed into their gender roles. It makes me sad.

MarynJoe

I agree that the Duggars mean well. 

mrsbecky07

mysticporter:

FallinAgain:

Can anyone point to a source stating that multiple pregnancies cause premature births after a certain number?

Are you willing to say that anyone 43 shouldn't have kids b/c of increased risks?  How about anyone over 35 since that's where risks start to increase?

I get that we think her choices are wonky b/c they are unusual, but I'm not going to judge anyone for deciding the size of their own family as long as they aren't asking me pay for it and are not endangering the babies' health to do it.  There's no evidence here that is the case.

There's always the argument that it's unfair to older kids, but I'm not sure I buy that.  My own grandmother was one of 12.  She was 2nd oldest and cared for her young siblings. They are all close, well-adjusted, successful adults.  I wonder if our focus on giving kids so much of mommy and daddy's whole focus does more harm than good.  The Duggar children certainly seem politer and better-behaved than most kids I encounter these days.  They seem to be doing something right.

It's not been part of the current discussion, which is complex enough as it is, but there's certainly an environmentalist argument that people who personally increase the population so dramatically are in some ways making us all pay with their choices.

This IS one of my issues with the Duggars.  Like I said in another post I don't really judge her for having so many kids, its her choice, but I am concerned about the impact on the environment - especially if each of those kids has 19 kids, etc. Now are we going to run out of oil bc of the Duggars?  No, of course not - but it can put a strain on our resources. 

I think though that saying its her fault the baby was born at 25 weeks is really really cruel.  I have a friend who gave birth 8 weeks early and she struggled - still does - with coming to terms with that, she blames herself for the baby being early, she has suffered PTSD and wakes up at night in cold sweats thinking her water is breaking again, etc. - and the baby is over a year old.  SIL gave birth 6 weeks early with her first and also blamed herself and struggled with feelings of guilt.  So I think a lot of women who go into labor early already blame themselves enough (wrongly) without others adding onto that.  

bunnybean

There is nothing smart, logical, or sensible about the Duggars. That said, barring consuming a large amount of pennyroyal or having Jim Bob punch her in the stomach, she probably played no part in her miscarriage (ETA: I meant her baby's premature birth, but miscarriage as well.)

However, the stats suzymarie posted are interesting. Perhaps the statistics of a baby train are catching up to them?

I hope the baby will be healthy and safe. 

Pescalita

Suzymarie, you want to post that on 2 under 2 and tell them they're irresponsible? Anyone want to take a stab at mominatrix since she had Xander at 41? No one's saying this directly to Michelle, but the judgments are just as ridiculous. Pregnancy involves risk, yes. Some involve more risk than others, yes. I don't know anything about what caused this premature birth, and almost nothing about Michelle's medical condition/history, nor am I a doctor. I just don't think we have anything near concrete to go on here except that that poor baby has a long way ahead of her.

MeredithE

IrishBrideND:

 

I agree that they mean well.

I think hs hit the nail on the head as to why they upset me. I hate that the girls seem to repressed into their gender roles. It makes me sad.

And they wear those goddamn virginity promise rings!!!

copzgirl

I am confused by the Duggar's mean well statements...what do they mean well with or about?

groovingirl

bunnybean:

There is nothing smart, logical, or sensible about the Duggars. That said, barring consuming a large amount of pennyroyal or having Jim Bob punch her in the stomach, she probably played no part in her miscarriage. 

However, the stats suzymarie posted are interesting. Perhaps the statistics of a baby train are catching up to them?

I hope the baby will be healthy and safe. 

laurenpetro

MarynJoe:

IrishBrideND:

MarynJoe:

I had no idea that our great grandparents and long gone relatives were so hateful and cruel as to have multiple kids knowing they might die, knowing they would work on the farm, and knowing they'd have to help raise each other. 

 

The world has changed a bit, you realize. Right?

 

You can't compare things across generations without taking their generation into context.

And you can't compare things across cultures/religious beliefs without taking their culture/religious belief into context.

up until they started having kids they were relatively normal by society's standards.  they were spiritual but not over the top.  then they needed justification for the BSC procreation and found it with a non-threatening fundamentalist religion.

so while your argument would make sense if they had held their beliefs all the while, it doesn't really work given their histories.

sandsonik

cme25:

Oh, and she became pregnant with #19 approximately 4-5 months after her previous pregnancy.

That blows my mind.  How does a 43 year old woman with 18 kids find the time or the energy to even have sex?  And presumably, quite often!?  I want to know her secret - as does my husband, I'm sure!

Someone else mentioned that she's rich - I really know nothing about the Duggars other than that they have a boatload of kids.  Do they come from money, or what does he do to support them all?  Because I'm betting she doesn't have a job, right?

 

TefLepOM

Pescalita:

Suzymarie, you want to post that on 2 under 2 and tell them they're irresponsible? Anyone want to take a stab at mominatrix since she had Xander at 41? No one's saying this directly to Michelle, but the judgments are just as ridiculous. Pregnancy involves risk, yes. Some involve more risk than others, yes. I don't know anything about what caused this premature birth, and almost nothing about Michelle's medical condition/history, nor am I a doctor. I just don't think we have anything near concrete to go on here except that that poor baby has a long way ahead of her.

pixy_stix

I think the Duggars are crafty in using their show to push their religious beliefs in the best light possible.  Considering some of the horrible things that are coming out from the women who escape the Quiverfull movement, I don't believe the Duggars mean well.  Their show is a deliberate move to mainstream their beliefs.

I find it nothing more than a whitewashed look into a cult, where people are lead to believe that "they mean well."

TefLepOM

sandsonik:

cme25:

Oh, and she became pregnant with #19 approximately 4-5 months after her previous pregnancy.

That blows my mind.  How does a 43 year old woman with 18 kids find the time or the energy to even have sex?  And presumably, quite often!?  I want to know her secret - as does my husband, I'm sure!

Someone else mentioned that she's rich - I really know nothing about the Duggars other than that they have a boatload of kids.  Do they come from money, or what does he do to support them all?  Because I'm betting she doesn't have a job, right?

I think he is in real estate or something and possibly politics and has a good chunk of money.  I think the show probably brings in a lot as well.

groovingirl

sandsonik:

cme25:

Oh, and she became pregnant with #19 approximately 4-5 months after her previous pregnancy.

That blows my mind.  How does a 43 year old woman with 18 kids find the time or the energy to even have sex?  And presumably, quite often!?  I want to know her secret - as does my husband, I'm sure!

Someone else mentioned that she's rich - I really know nothing about the Duggars other than that they have a boatload of kids.  Do they come from money, or what does he do to support them all?  Because I'm betting she doesn't have a job, right?

 

He used to be a state senator and is now a car salesman, I think.  Plus the money they make from their reality shows helps too I'm sure. 

TefLepOM

pixy_stix:

I think the Duggars are crafty in using their show to push their religious beliefs in the best light possible.  Considering some of the horrible things that are coming out from the women who escape the Quiverfull movement, I don't believe the Duggars mean well.  Their show is a deliberate move to mainstream their beliefs.

I find it nothing more than a whitewashed look into a cult, where people are lead to believe that "they mean well."

That damn TLC and their subliminal messages--the Duggars and the Gosselins. (I am being TIC, but I think that aspect is a bit off)