Politics & Current Events
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Re: Probably flammable, but I want to ask anyways
You're welcome. But seriously, feel free to ignore me; there are enough other similar replies.
Yeah, maybe. It's just a weird thing to get worked up about. AW is offended because of her beliefs. And the board is offended that AW points out her offense and implies that she wouldn't be offended if we weren't doing things to offend her? And our right to use words that offend her should be defended because that's just as important as the fact that she's offended by something because of her faith, which the vast majority of this board doesn't share? It's just a weird, circular argument. Not all things are equal. No, AW doesn't have a right to not be offended. But I also don't want to be a jerk about it.
Example: going to a party with a lot of vegetarians and being offended that there's only vegetarian food, because you eat meat. Well, you can STILL eat the vegetarian food. The vegetarians can't eat the meat. So the all-veggie buffet might not be totally to your liking, and if you have a craving for bacon, it might put you out a bit, but in general, every gets fed and doesn't go home hungry. Like another poster pointed out, I can use Forfuuckssake instead of JFC and it conveys about the same level of epithet, while not doing something to offend devout Christians. *shrug*
40/112
I don't want to be a jerk about it either; but AW's ticking me off with her "you just can't possibly understand" ridiculousness.
Updated September 2012.
I'm sorry, I just fail to see how someone could truly understand and still consider themselves to be open-minded and politically correct (as many of the posters here claim to be). If you're rude and you own it, I can get behind you claiming to understand and just not caring enough to change behavior. But when I see someone in other threads talking about how they want to be open-minded and learn about other people and also get upset when people say offensive things about groups of people, but then say, "I understand. I just think you're silly for being offended." Well, pardon me for assuming that you actually don't understand (or that you're full of it when you say that you care about being open-minded, learning about others, or aim to be politically correct). Something is not adding up.
And once again, I'm not saying that the words should be banned, like you keep saying. By all means, use the words if you feel you won't get your point across without them. Just own the rudeness.
That was a lot of posts.
AW, I don't dislike you. I respect a lot of what you say and how you say it, but posts like this drive me up a wall and here's why: even though you talk yourself blue in the face about how you're not being a martyr, or talking about persecution, or asking anyone to change anything, or you're "just asking out of curiosity", it is very obvious that that is not the case, whether intentionally or not. I really feel like you are expecting people to change the way they say certain things because it offends you and your faith. You faith, which is one of so very many.
If I was having a 1:1 convo with you, I would definitely be more thoughtful of my words, but on a very large, national, message board such as this, I think it is fairly self absorbed to even bring this up. Like others have said, it's no secret that these phrases offend some people, and I don't really feel like you're breaking any new ground here.
We KNOW you love Jesus. I sometimes wonder if you are capable of having a conversation in which faith does not play a main role or come up (and I am not saying that to be snarky; I genuinely wonder this).
I guess I just don't like threads where I feel like my mom is on here, because sometimes you come off in a very condescending, "let me teach you the RIGHT thing" way, even though I know that that is not your intention.
I never said you were silly for being offended.
People understand that you're offended, and they get why. They just don't subscribe to the same belief system you do.
Updated September 2012.
I haven't read everything b/c honestly it sounds like 9 pages of people saying the same thing over and over again.
But...just as a general matter, if I say something and it offends someone, and they tell me this, and I care about this person's feelings, and generally I don't enjoy hurting someone's feelings, I will entertain the possibility of modifying my behavior. So AW, in the future I will try to refrain from using certain words when speaking to you. I can't guarantee that I won't use the words with other people though on this board. I think this a fair compromise.
AW, is a change in behavior the only way to show understanding of an idea or concept?
Yes,I'm smiling...I'm a marathoner!
Bloggy McBloggerson
CO Nestie Award Winner-Prettiest Brain-Back to Back!
2011 Bests
5K-22:49 10K-47:38 Half Mary-1:51:50
2012 Race Report
1/1-New Year's 5K-22:11
2/11-Sweetheart Classic 4-mile-29:49
3/24-Coulee Chase 5K-21:40
5/6-Colorado Marathon-4:08:30
5/28-Bolder Boulder 10K
Oh my...okay. See. Okay. That's what people are trying to do. They're saying "Hey, sorry it offends you. But I don't really care." And your response is "well, you don't care because you don't UNDERSTAND." People ARE owning it, and you STILL are insisting that they don't understand. Just because SOME PEOPLE might not understand, doesn't give you the right to make blanket ass statements like "if you still use the work you obviously don't understand why I find it offensive."
I think I can find a way to apply my faith to just about any topic. It's as much a part of me as the air I breathe. What can I say? As the Bible says, I'm a slave to Christ.
And as I said in the OP, I'm only bringing it up because it's Good Friday and the thought was looming. If that makes me a martyr, so be it. I don't feel persecuted at all. I asked for the discussion and am a big girl who can handle what comes with it.
And I'm not trying to change anyone with this any more than someone trying to explain what they believe about any other topic is trying to change anyone. When someone wants to discuss abortions and gives their opinion on it, I don't think they are trying to make everyone on the board agree with them. I think they are trying to explain their beliefs, start a discussion and hopefully everyone can learn something from it. I don't understand why you view my posts differently. Is it my tone? I am honestly curious. I don't want to come across as anyone's mother, so please help me learn what I am doing that causes me to appear that way.
I appreciate it. It makes me happy to know you care about my feelings
And being open-minded doesn't mean you have to start respecting other people's beliefs, as crappy as that is. I can be very open-minded and accepting of other people's beliefs, or actions, or whatever, and still think they're stupid and pointless and inwardly roll my eyes at them. Acceptance does not equal approval, for godssake.
Sh*t, see what you made me do AW? Damnit.
And this, aw, was the basis of my comment to you. I'm on my phone and not typing lengthy replies, so I just get to the point.
I agree with everything pinkeggs says here, except I'm not convinced its unintentional.
Ok, fine. I'll add something constructive. IMO...
Wanting to be open-minded and learn = I'm curious and want to learn about people.
Wanting to be open-minded and learn =/= I want to learn what other people do and therefore conform to what everyone else says is gospel.
When a person learns a concept, by definition, the person understands the concept. It doesn't mean they agree with or will use said concept in their daily life.
http://pandce.proboards.com/index.cgi#general
And once again, I'm not saying that the words should be banned, like you keep saying. By all means, use the words if you feel you won't get your point across without them. Just own the rudeness.
But AW, you're NOT just discussing this to discuss it. You're making judgments about people who don't feel the same way you do. It's not just that you think people don't understand; you think they're d!cks if they don't decide to curb their tongues around everyone.
Updated September 2012.
I think it depends on what you are trying to understand. I think part of understanding is realizing the implication.
If someone were to tell me it is hurtful for me to have a picture of my baby in my signature because they just lost their baby, I'm not sure how I could understand what they are saying and continue to keep the picture in my signature. I could say I understand, but don't care enough about the person to remove it, but to me that shows a lack of understanding. I may be understanding it intellectually, but there is an emotional component that I must not be getting. Unless of course I lack certain things, like empathy, or am a sociopath who enjoys causing others pain.
That isn't the same thing as someone using the Lord's name in vain. Just as example to show how understanding, IMO, goes beyond just the intellectual.
Like I said above, I recognize that there are people who intellectually understand and just don't care about the implications. But I don't define those people as "understanding". Does that make sense?
10 pages before I even awake? That has to be a record.
But, it's all been so cyclical that it's old.
I'll add that I do actually understand the cringing b/c I felt that as a child. I outgrew that long before I ditched my faith, but I do understand it. However, I started using religious epithets once I became an atheist. It was my personal way of demonstrating that those restrictions no longer have power over me.
I refrain from using them around religious friends in person. I will not censor myself in a public forum such as this. I accept that someone may find it offensive, and I think that says more about them than about me if they choose to think poorly of me or ignore me because of it.
I also support draw muhammed day, though, so I own that blasphemy is a victimless crime.
I really thought about this for a moment to try and pinpoint it, and I think it comes down to your words and tone when it comes to saying something like, "You know that this can be offensive, so perhaps try to be more considerate of others and just not do it". That is something my mom would say to me. Even paraphrased.
And yes, I know some things are offensive. Sometimes I try and curb my way of expression, and sometimes I don't. I am a 32 year old woman, and I can make those choices without being made to feel like a six year old being disciplined.
Does that make sense?
I think that ANYONE who decides to engage in a behavior that they KNOW offends someone else is being rude. Period.
I am not saying that people who use the Lord's name in vain in general are rude. I recognize that it is not their intent to always offend people.
But I do think that once someone KNOWS that what they are saying could be hurtful to another person, yet continues to say those things in the presence of that person, they are rude.
It's what you would think of a person who said the word retard in front of pixy knowing how she feels, right? It's what you would think of a person who said the word gay as stupid in front of a homosexual, right?
My point was that I don't see how this is any different. Offensive is offensive. Polite people try not to offend. Rude people don't care who they offend. I don't think these are judgment calls that are different from what most people believe. My faith or belief on the Lord's name has nothing to do with these judgment calls. I would say the same thing about someone using the word Mohammad negatively in front of a Muslim.
ETA - I recognize that this is a publoic forum and don't expect people to change their behavior here, unless they care about what some of the religious people on this board think. I guess my point is posting was hoping that people would recognize how rude it is to say these things in their real lives.
One might also say that your inability or unwillingness to understand the motivations of people who do use religious oaths is also rude.
Updated September 2012.
Don't bother. It's more "martyr", "judgment", and "you think your beliefs are more important than mine" stuff.
ETA - Except that there are several posts from people who showed how they care for people who are offended and I think it may be worth you reading, 2V, to see what they wrote.
Basically I'm trying to tell people how to live. People have the right to be offensive. People can still be understanding and offend people (apparently).
And that's a wrap.
He is Risen! Happy Easter to everyone!
I think I get it. But if that is the case, then aren't you sort of pigeonholing yourself into some kind of ivory tower where only people who act exactly like you and share the same experiences are worthy of consideration? You always ask questions of people who are different from you in many ways...will you never understand their viewpoint because you're not going to live that lifestyle? I don't think so. You will understand it.
I think you are trying to combine empathy and understanding. While personal emotional connection can *enhance* understanding, a person doesn't need it to understand. Understanding *is* an intellectual act, which can exist completely separate from an emotional component. My students *understand* Romeo and Juliet, they don't need to kill themselves to truly show that they do, kwim?
Yes,I'm smiling...I'm a marathoner!
Bloggy McBloggerson
CO Nestie Award Winner-Prettiest Brain-Back to Back!
2011 Bests
5K-22:49 10K-47:38 Half Mary-1:51:50
2012 Race Report
1/1-New Year's 5K-22:11
2/11-Sweetheart Classic 4-mile-29:49
3/24-Coulee Chase 5K-21:40
5/6-Colorado Marathon-4:08:30
5/28-Bolder Boulder 10K
Ok.
Bible-thumpers who try to push their beliefs on others offend me.
Do you understand?
http://pandce.proboards.com/index.cgi#general
AW is actually really really good about not doing this. She often says, multiple times over, "my faith" "my beliefs on this..." She doesn't say, you're all idiots for not believing what I believe. Which is a heckuva lot better than what she's gotten in this thread by those bucking her about finding using JFC offensive.
Zuma Zoom
Yet, there's still 10 pages of "but this is what I believe. You guys are obviously rude if you don't respect my beliefs enough to stop saying OMG and JFC."
http://pandce.proboards.com/index.cgi#general
I'm sorry that that is what you took from it, and I am sorry that you got frustrated. I would encourage you to remember that you are shown a LOT more tolerance and respect on here than some others of similar beliefs and posts might be/have been.
Yea only the posts agreeing with the OP are worth reading here. Certainly no one else has said anything valid or of value unless they have commited to behavior change including those who never really engaged in said behavior to begin with.
I think Romeo and Juliet is the wrong example. That is a story.
What we're talking about here (the baby photo or the issue of blasphemy) is a little more involved. We're talking about concepts that have emotional or spiritual implications, so I think sometimes it's hard to understand the concept unless you can put yourself in the other person's emotional or spiritual "shoes".
If you're talking about the concept of love in the story of Romeo and Juliet, sure, your students can intellectually understand "love". But I think there is an emotional component to it that not all high school students are going to able to understand. Can they understand what it is like to love someone so much that you are willing to die because you can't be with them? I don't think a lot of students could really wrap their head around the concept without having actually experienced that type of love.
I think that we're dealing with something similar here. Sometimes true understanding requires more than just your brain.
I don't see how we can possibly discuss anything related to politics, religion, or a thousand other topics on this board if we can't say things that offend other people for fear of being rude.
For example, I'm deeply offended when anyone says women should submit to men simply because they are women or "because it says so in the Bible." (note: if it's "this is what works for us" or some other not-across-the-board policy of submission, that's different.) I find that incredibly sexist and offensive. But if that's YOUR opinion, should I tell you never to mention it on the board for fear of being rude?